The most amazing footage I have ever seen [VIDEO]

Perhaps not, but in terms of combating the ludicrous (very common) outlook that older generations didn't have a clue it's a nice rebuttal.

Bravo to the OP.

 

No one looked like Pep and not many looked like Jofre or Napoles. Both fighter had all of the tools that you need. movement, rolling, slipping, ducking, jabbing, countering, straight rights and hooks.

What was missing?

 

Klompton summed up their abilities better than I can, but it looked to me like McTigue had no offense and Siki had little defense. You make a lot of the shoulder roll but McTigue is no Floyd Mayweather, no James Toney, no Archie Moore. Andre Berto also uses the shoulder roll, does that make him a great defensive fighter?

I know that McTigue beat Loughran, Walker, and Stribling but he's not as good as any of those fighters and there's probably another reason for those decisions.

 

John...untrue. Neither fighter was considered a great fighter in their day. Siki and this was from Fleischer, knew "very little of the basics of boxing.". McTigue was considered a decent scrapper but more of a journeyman. So you are not looking at fighters who were considered great fighters at any time even their own.

 

Mike Mctigue never beat Walker or Stribling. He lost a wide no decision match against Walker (by once again running and covering up and pretty much refusing to fight) and then was stopped in the first round of the rematch. He lost every round of both fights to Stribling, getting dropped in the process during the second bout. He fought Loughran 4 times and lost three of those bouts. Theres no doubt in my mind hes one of the weakest champions in history. Its one thing to say "he was a champion so he deserves some respect" but that totally ignores how he won the champion. Frankly the same goes for Siki. Both of those fights had their share of stuff going on on the side. McTigue winning an obvious robbery and Siki agreeing to take a dive and then turning the tables on an undertrained and unmotivated Carpentier (who most will no I think is overrated to begin with). No, neither of these guys was anything special. Did McTigue have defense? Sure, its about all he showed in most of his fights. Was Siki strong, athletic, aggressive, tough, and carried a punch? Yes. It shouldnt come as any surprise that fighters back then could fight. The thing is that there were a lot of better fighters around at the time who were fighting for a shot at the title and didnt get it or even close to this kind of recognition because undeserving fighters got there first and **** blocked everyone else. Carpentier turned down $100,000 to face Greb in order to face Siki (an easier, fixed fight) for about 1/5 that amount. Siki took what he thought would be an easy defense against a ham and egger and got robbed. McTigue spent his entire championship running from worthy fighters, hiding in ND bouts, and still turned in an abysmal record as champion. He ducked out of an agreed upon title defense against Greb in June 1923 and later that same year when his manager signed him to defend against Tunney he promptly fired his manager and walked out on that bout too. Three of his eight fights as champion came against an 18 year old and a welterweight and he lost all three of those fights in dominant fashion. The guys was a joke as a champion. Absolutely awful. If he were even a paper champion today people would tar and feather him. John Ruiz looks like Mike Tyson and Muhammad Ali in one compared to McTigue.

 

Oh, I see. I was going on the wikipedia article that read

But if the title wasn't on the line when he fought them he could have lost and kept it. However, I did take a look at his boxrec page and he has a newspaper decision over Loughran. Did his manager call the results in? I've heard that used to happen. No way is this guy beating Loughran legitimately, as their other bouts testify.

There also appears to have been some shenanigans with the Stribling fights. The first time Stribling is declared the winner and then the ref comes back an hour later and declares it a draw. Here's what boxrec says about the bout.

Five months later Stribling wins a newspaper decision against McTigue in their return bout. Then McTigue loses to Walker, but I guess the title doesn't pass then either, since it's a newspaper fight. Then comes the Berlenbach fight.

Berlenbach doesn't sound like much of an improvement either:

 

Ive researched the McTigue-Stribling fight down south and it was really dirty what McTigue and his people pulled. Basically McTigue and Jacobs went down there expecting to fight an 18 year old kid wet behind the ears. They took their own referee (Harry Ertle) for protection. They looked on the people there as hicks and hayseeds and figured they would take them for a ride by beating their "Schoolboy hero." When they got there they saw that Stribling was something of a prodigy and was no normal 18 year old. Very quickly McTigue demanded that the fight be changed from a decision bout to a ND bout. The promoters refused. Then McTigue stated that he had injured his hand in training and refused to fight. Several doctors were called in to verify his injury and all stated that the only injury they could find was an old, improperly healed broken thumb which was not recent and would not prevent him from fighting. Harry Ertle stepped in for McTigue and pleaded with local officials to make the fight a ND in order to protect McTigue's title. Nobody was having any of McTigue's nonsense and they refused and demanded that he fight. Finally McTigue agreed. When it came time to fight all he did was run and cover up. Stribling won every round. When the fight was over Ertle refused to render a decision, he simply threw up his hands and started to leave the ring. The promoter was furious and demanded that Ertle render a decision as per local law and the contract for the fight. Ertle then climbed back into the ring and yelled that the fight was draw. The audience was furious. The newspapermen ringside were polled and all (that I have seen, which is a lot) voted for Stribling. Some announced their verdicts aloud ringside. The promoter sent Ertle back into the ring where Ertle then changed his decision and rendered Stribling the victor. Ertle, McTigue, and Jacobs then all left together and took a train to Atlanta where they announced that on the train Ertle had once again reversed his decision and rendered the bout a draw. When the three got back to New York they told wild tales about being threatened with lynching by the KKK (feeding off the public's fascination with the newly resurgent white supremacist group). McTigue even had the gall to refer to Stribling as "a joke" of a fighter. Six months later they fought again. McTigue refused to fight anywhere a decision could be rendered so the fight was held in New Jersey. Stribling won every round and knocked McTigue down in the process. McTigue spent most of his time clinching, running, and covering up.

 

Christ, you can learn more in one Klompton post than surfing this site otherwise for months ..

What is your feelings about Stribling as a fighter .. I simply cannot get a read on him .. was he championship caliber or some sort of built up Sean O'Grady type of his day ?

 

Stribling is interesting. I waffle back and forth on him and I think Ive basically settled on the idea that the guy could fight and had legitimate ability but he was also protected and carefully matched. His record is probably one of the most padded you will ever see but he usually showed ability when he stepped up. To give an idea of how padded his record is: He's way up there in terms of how many KOs he has on his record BUT he wasnt considered a hard puncher by any stretch. He clearly steered clear of some tougher bouts and spent a lot of time boxing in the sticks, knocking out no hopers and sort of barnstorming. In a way this makes sense given the vaudville/circus background of his parents. They knew they had a talent and they knew they could market him. They werent so much interested in his legacy as they were promoting him, building him up, showcasing him as a boxing entertainer so to speak, and maximizing their earning. You have to give them credit, they were good at it. I see Stribling as kind of a front runner. A guy with good skills, and a lot of athletic ability, who could make money taking easy fights so when he found himself in a hard one and not in the lead and he didnt really let it all out.

 

great footage. its always great to view pre 1930 , especially complete bouts or close to it, and very very few with such quality and correct speed. no these guys werent world beaters of the time but they were seasoned tough pros that were commonplace in those days, rare nowadays, and going a respectable 20 rounds. the techniques were good , not great, but the competion was absoulutely crushing so that only the smartest, toughest, most dangerous boxers rose to the top and stayed there for any lenght of time

 

Yeah, I don't know about that. I was just watching footage on the old light heavyweight champs today, inspired by this thread, and Freddie Mills looks like **** against Joey Maxim. Then I watched Gus Lesnevich get blown out of the ring by Freddie Steele (who is legitimately awesome). Plus, who the hell is Anton Christoforidis? I can't even find any film on him. Len Harvey, Bob Olin, Bob Godwin, Joe Knight? There seems to be no shortage of low level temporary filler champs in between the reigns of guys like Archie Moore or Maxie Rosenbloom. Face it, there were a lot of terrible weak champs back in the 20s, 30s, and 40s too, and a lot of the time the best guy around didn't get his shot for a long time.

 

Theres footage of Christoforidis against Bivins, Tenet, and one other guy I cant remember.

 

Should he have stayed at 175 ? Could he have been champ at 175 ? How competitive was his bout w Schmeling ? What would you consider his best performances against top competition ?