The No Spin Zone: A Fair & Balanced Assessment Of Everything Anthony Joshua & Deontay Wilder.

Discussion in 'World Boxing Forum' started by CST80, Aug 19, 2018.



  1. CST80

    CST80 The Mercurial Mephistophelean Malcontent Staff Member

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    All the spin and propaganda has gotten to the point of being beyond tiresome, with both sides trying their level best to downplay, undermine and twist the resume of each fighter and their accomplishments to suit some kind of bizarre hackneyed triangle theory narrative/angle/agenda they're pushing. All that that ends up accomplishing is that both sides and both fighters are denigrated and sullied and everyone tires of the situation and wants it to be over and done with as quickly as possible and end up hating both sides. Its nauseatingly transparent, so I'm going to do my best to set the record straight, and be as fair and balanced as I possible can, even though I have a horse in this race.

    The Resume Of Anthony Joshua

    Joseph Parker - While I rate the skillset of Joe quite highly, its pretty apparent that he's the walking definition of risk adverse, whether he fears being KO'd or gassing or both, he fights as conservatively as humanly possible and lately is very defensively minded. Going into the fight, his best wins were over Hughie Fury, Andy Ruiz Jr., Carlos Takam and Alexander Dimitrenko. He barely got past the first three, I scored them all roughly 7-5 in Parker's favor. Dimitrenko showed up to collect a paycheck and pulled a quit job. Since losing to AJ, which IMO was debatable, since both men fought safety first and landed near identical number of punches from round to round, he lost a razor thin and controversial UD to Dillian Whyte, who scored a headbutt induced KD, and benefited from a lot of pro-Brit reffing. The fight should have been a draw or a close UD win for Parker. Aside from Wlad this is definitely Joshua's best win, a very good solid B - win.

    Carlos Takam - Carlos Takam's best win going into the match against AJ was.... not sure actually, Tony Thompson I guess. He's best known not for his wins, but for having close fights with quality Heavyweights before being KO'd or losing a close decision. He's durable, tough and can be tricky at times, but based solely off of his resume, the win while good, its not all that amazing. Especially when you take into consideration the lackluster nature of the stoppage AJ scored, Povetkin and Chisora KO'd Takam in spectacular fashion, but... a stoppage is a stoppage, so... its a solid C+ win.

    Wladimir Klitschko - Hands down the best win of any current Heavyweight, but... the fact remains that this is a Wladimir Klitschko who was 41 years old, coming off of a 17 month layoff, a calf injury that delayed the rematch with Fury, a Wlad who was gunshy and couldn't pull the trigger against Tyson Fury and Bryant Jennings. Wlad's last truly great performance came in the fall of 2014, 2 1/2 years earlier against Kubrat Pulev, who fought like an idiot and gave Wlad ample opportunities to counter him. Many like to say that Wlad turned back the clock, had an extra pep in his step.... did he? Or was it that stylistically he could shine against AJ more than he could against Jennings and Fury? Regardless, all indications had been pointing towards Wlad being on the slide, so either he pulled one more great performance out of his bag, or AJ just isn't that good? Which is it? AJ gassed halfway through, was nearly KO'd and was arguably behind on the scorecards and needed the KO. Well he got it, and he deserves full credit for showing true grit and heart, and he owes a debt of gratitude towards Vitali for telling Wlad to take his time. Solid A+ win, it doesn't get any better, a win over a shot old Wlad, is still worth A LOT more than a win over Parker, Whyte, Ortiz and Takam all rolled up in one.


    Eric Molina - Molina is a subpar fighter, whose three big claims to fame are hurting Arreola before being KO'd in 1, rocking Wilder once, and losing by KO, and his crowning achievement, stopping the corpse of Tomasz Adamek. He got his big shot at Wilder by beating journeyman Raphael Zumbano Love, he followed up his KO loss to AJ by being stopped by Breazeale. He's kind of a bum. A D+ level win at best.

    Dominic Breazeale - Skillwise, Dominic is terrible, but heart, the man has a ton of it, he's been dropped on several occasions, and found the courage to dig deep and bounce back with a late KO victories on more than one occasion. But face facts, he lost to Fred Kassi and got a gift decision, almost everyone viewed that decision as a Haymon special, he was losing to Mansour after getting dropped, only to score a freak mouth injury stoppage. Then after the AJ match, he bounced back by letting Ugonoh wear himself out by beating the living **** out of him, and scored the KO on Izu when he was thoroughly exhausted. Dominic is a good guy, but not a great boxer, most with a pulse beat him. Decent C level win.

    Charles Martin - His best wins were over Mansour victim Joey Dawekjo and Vyacheslav Glazleg, thoroughly unproven before and after the win. His freak injury TKO win over Glazkov is somewhat notable, since he was winning at the time of the stoppage, but Glazkov is kind of crappy and should have lost on several occasions himself to Cunningham, Rossy and Scott, quite frankly his win over Adamek was a little too close for comfort. The win over Martin may age well if he can get his **** together, but he simply hasn't accomplished enough for it to be ranked very highly. C - level.

    Dillian Whyte - In Whyte's defense, he did throw his shoulder out midway though a flurry on an out on his feet AJ, so that was a win over a compromised version of Whyte, so I'm not sure how much credit AJ deserves for it. Thankfully for AJ along with the injury, he also managed to punch himself out in the second as well. Whyte since then has gone on to rack up a handful of decent wins over Lewison, less impressively than Joe Joyce, over Dave Allen, less impressively than Luis Ortiz and Tony Yoka, Robert Helenius, less impressively than Johann Duhaupas. Has two debatable gift wins over Chisora and Parker. He does have one crowning achievement I can't take away from him, Lucas Browne. Whyte is a genuine overachiever, he's tough but limited, his poor stamina, shaky whiskers and average power have almost done him in on several occasions, but he fights through it. AJ's third best win, but Whyte still loses to most of the elite in the division. A solid C+ level win.

    Gary Cornish - God Awful, worthless win, he has terrible stamina, and a glass jaw, he lost to Sam Sexton who got brutally KTFO by Hughie Fury for God sakes. D -.

    Kevin Johnson - Showed up for a paycheck, too damn old to be in with a big puncher like AJ, he went on to be KO'd by Petar Milas in 7, although he did manage to stop Pianeta somehow, not sure how he pulled that off.:lol: D level.
     
  2. CST80

    CST80 The Mercurial Mephistophelean Malcontent Staff Member

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    The Resume Of Deontay Wilder

    Luis Ortiz - Much has been made of the health and age of King Kong Ortiz, well that's all mere speculation and conjecture. He was cleared to compete, therefore that means he was healthy enough to compete, so stop blowing it out of proportion. By far this is Wilder's signature win, and whether anyone wants to admit it or not, Ortiz was the boogieman of the division and still is to a great extent. AJ ducked him, Wlad ducked him, Whyte ducked him, Wilder did not. Far too much has been made about his supposed decline, what is that being based on? He couldn't KO Malik Scott? No, but he dropped him like 20 times, some guys don't look good against certain styles, clearly fleet footed backfoot counter punchers aren't Ortiz's cup of tea. He still managed to beat his ass in dominant 120-105 fashion. He also holds a win over Thompson, Takam's best win, via stoppage in the 6th., something Pricey couldn't accomplish in two tries, because he got KTFOx2. Sure Tony was old, but... he'd only been KO'd twice before by Wlad, Ortiz pulled off what no one other than Wlad could. This shot to hell old fighter also managed to stop Dave Allen, after doling out a vicious one sided beating for 7 rounds, something Whyte couldn't pull off no matter how hard he tried. His win over Jennings is incredibly underrated, Jennings is as solid an operator as they come, and knows how to survive, Ortiz did what Wlad could not and was the first and only man to stop him. Hell, maybe everyone is right, Ortiz could be 55 and have high blood pressure, but he still managed to stop Cojanu in 2, something Parker couldn't do in 12, not to mention he had better stamina in the 10th against Wilder than Parker had in the 5th vs. Whyte. So what's it say that Ortiz is outperforming two of AJ's best wins on a regular basis? It means he's a damn good win, so knock it off. Granted Ortiz wasn't quite the beast he was when he fought Jennings, but Ortiz is a solid B win nonetheless.

    Bermane Stiverne - A shell of the Bermane that Wilder fought the first time, around a D +.

    Gerald Washington - El Gallo Negro has a terrible gas tank, which is a pity, since he'd be fairly close to top notch if he didn't usually gas in 5. Regardless, he performed far better against Mansour than Breazeale did, and has decent wins over Nofire and Chambers. He has decent skills, but let's be honest, he's not great. He's just okay, nothing special, he's about on par with Breazeale. He's around a C level HW.

    Cristobal Arreola - The Nightmare that Wilder fought was a shell of the Nightmare than Bermane fought, and that was a shell of the Nightmare that Vitali fought, so in name only was this win worth a damn. Chris probably should have come into the WIlder match carrying with him two more L's than he officially had, the Kauffman and Kassi matches were losses for him IMO. It was a sad sight to see. At best that Arreola was D level.

    Artur Szpilka - The Pin is about as glass jawed as all hell, his best wins were the pair of KO victories over Mike Mollo and his UD over Adamek, he's best known for being KO'd by Bryant Jennings on HBO, but in his defense, Szpilka improved drastically under the tutelage of Ronnie Shields, he shored up his defense, and utilized the awkwardness of his southpaw stance to its maximum advantage, but anyone who can take his shots would still probably bulldoze him. Skillwise Szpilka is solid, chin wise, he's bloody awful, an okay win at best. C-.

    Johann Duhaupas - Probably Wilder's second best win, his resume is underrated, he beat Erkan Teper and was robbed in Germany, he beat Manuel Charr and thankfully got credit for that, he's as solid as they come at European Level. He followed up his TKO loss at the hands of Wilder by viciously TKOing Helenius, but sadly followed that triumph up by stupidly stepping in as a last minute replacement on a few hours notice to face Povetkin who had literally just tested positive for Meldonium, and still managed to last 6 rounds with him. Since then he went the distance with Miller, but lost most of the rounds. Duhaupas is fairly decent but nothing all that special, he's around C+ level.

    Eric Molina - See the AJ rundown. D+.

    Bermane Stiverne - Coming off of the back to back Arreola wins, Stiverne was a decent scalp for an up and coming fighter, remember this was Wilder's first big step up, many very smart posters on here predicted a Stiverne KO win, not I, I picked Wilder, but anyway a decent win at the time, though the win hasn't aged all that gracefully has it? He came back to go life and death with Rossy, the version Wilder faced was roughly low level Takam, high level Breazeale, about a C.

    Malik Scott - If the KO was on the up and up, then that's a damn fine accomplishment, since Scott was coming off of a robbery draw to Glazkov, a sketchy TKO loss to Chisora, and a KO win over Tupou, he went on to UD Leapai and Thompson... but if its not, which it probably wasn't... then its a push. If it was a legit win, then C-, if it was fake, it doesn't count.

    Siarhei Liakhovich - While past his sell by date, he still managed to give Ruiz Jr. in his next match some issues and went the distance. Siarhei is best known for being the guy that better fighters stop late, and having a FOTY candidate against Lamon Brewster. Not an amazing win, he was coming off of two back to back 9th round TKO losses to Helenius and Jennings. But Goddamn! Wilder sent him into convulsions, so the quality of the win in and of itself was impressive. But the fighter himself, merely D level.

    Audley Harrison - By the time Wilder got to him, he was beyond done, but still he got him out of there quicker than Haye and Price by a few seconds.:sisi1 Not great win, D- at best, F at worse.
     
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  3. CST80

    CST80 The Mercurial Mephistophelean Malcontent Staff Member

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    In Closing....

    Both of their resumes leave a hell of a lot to be desired, they each have one very solid signature win. AJ over a shot legend, and Wilder over an undefeated old perceived boogieman. The rest of their resumes are littered with subpar so so guys who are a slight cut above journeymen, with a handful of guys dwelling on the outskirts of world level. Clearly on paper AJ's is the far better of the two, there's no debating that, solely based on the win over Wlad that makes it a cut above, but when you add in Parker and Whyte, that elevates it even higher. Wilder's resume leaves a lot to be desired, the Ortiz win was world class and top tier, but aside from that Duhaupas, Stiverne and Szpilka while decent scalps are hardly worth writing home about, good but not great. But ultimately who gives a ****? What's the point of debating all of this madness? Okay great... Wilder's resume isn't as good as AJ's... and? So? Does that mean AJ shouldn't fight what's clearly the second best HW in the world? Does that mean AJ or Hearn should make him jump through hoops and run some kind of gauntlet to earn the right to face him? Why? He didn't make Whyte, Parker, Takam or Povetkin run a gauntlet, so no excuse will suffice. AJ gets great PPV numbers, well Wilder regularly draws 1-2 million viewers in the US. This must be taken into consideration, the UK is a small little island with a much smaller TV market. AJ is a national hero who won a Gold Freaking Medal in the 2012 LONDON Olympics. When he turned pro, he was coming in with a ton of momentum, and Fast Eddie Hearn the great businessman that he is, put every match of AJ's on televised TV and PPV undercards giving him maximum exposure and built him into the next big thing a mythical Tyson like figure, he marketed him amazingly well. In spite of the fact that with most of his TKO wins... his opponents were on their feet and the ref stepped in, they weren't truly devastating Tyson-esque brutal KTFO KO's. He clearly has power, but its not quite as impressive as its billed, its usually more due to accumulation than of the one punch variety.

    Now... context really ****ing matters here. Wilder on the other hand started his career when Boxing was all but dead here in the States, and he was a Bronze medalist, no one cares about Claressa Shields now, and she's a two time Gold Medalist, no one cared about Andre Ward all that much either, and he was a Gold Medalist. This country just doesn't care that much about Boxing anymore, even right now it's not as popular as MMA. So that meant Wilder had to take the near identical path as every other young fighter that came before him, by fighting a ****load of bummy glass jawed journeymen, same thing that Ward did, Thurman did, Porter did, Mayweather did, Pacquiao did, Kovalev did, Golovkin did, Canelo did, young fighters the world over did and are still doing, its absolutely nothing to be ashamed of. Its kind of the standard for most fighters after they turn pro, the post 2012 guys like AJ, Loma, Usyk and even Spence to a certain extent are the exception to the rule. Promoters realize they have potentially hot commodities and want to strike while the iron is hot and get as much out of their fighters as humanly possible since most of them are turning pro at a later date after prolonged amateur careers. Wilder did what every other American fighter has done, it is what it is. Stop acting like its something to be ashamed of or out of the ordinary. Not everyone is a Golden Boy who's fed everything on a silver platter like Lomachenko and Anthony Joshua. Quite frankly no one should hold that against Anthony Joshua either, he's merely jumping on the opportunities that's handed to him and making the most out of them.

    As far as the fighters themselves.

    Neither guy is extraordinarily skilled, AJ clearly has the better fundamentals, he controls range well, has a decent one two, a solid uppercut, average footwork, doesn't cut the ring off all that well, and is a good combination puncher. Wilder is awkward, sloppy, makes a ton of mistakes, has poor footwork, windmills like a maniac, but has that great equalizer, the straight right from Hell. AJ has a terrible gas tank, Wilder has a great gas tank. AJ's been dropped by Wlad hard, hurt by Parker and Whyte, Wilder's been hurt by Molina and withstood a fuselage of bombs from Ortiz without going down. Chin wise, the edge must be given to Wilder. AJ is superior in a few departments, Wilder is superior in a few departments and they're both flawed in several, which is what makes this such an intriguing match.

    Upcoming Fights

    Alexander Povetkin - A win over Sasha at this point will be a little less impressive and historically significant, he's clearly somewhat diminished post the meldonium scandal, he's regularly going the distance with guys like Hammer and Rudenko, and getting rocked across the ring by David Price. Still, its a solid win that AJ will deserve a ton of credit for, especially if its via stoppage.

    Tyson Fury - He's been off for almost 3 years, obviously he's rusty, he's not as sharp as he was before the layoff, his jab, combinations, footwork, speed, defense aren't quite up to par, that being said, the Tyson that beat Pianeta isn't a far cry from the Tyson that beat Chisora in the second match or the guy that stopped Hammer. Tyson has a pattern of being a guy that rises to the occasion when faced with a tough task and fighting to the level of his opposition when not. Will he be the guy that beat Wlad, no, probably not, but he's undefeated and a win over him by Deontay will be damn solid, and Wilder will deserve a hell of a lot of credit for it.

    Now you all try to be nice to one another, give each fighter the proper credit they deserve, stop undermining both of them incessantly, I could even take my own advice here. Both guys have ducked each other in one way or another, no one's hands should be considered clean here. But here's the reality, when push comes to shove, and the demand for the fight reaches a fever pitch, both men will find their pen and sign on the dotted line, so all the clamor until that happens, is just pointless hot air. The fight will happen eventually, at this point... its too profitable for it not to. Money Talks, and Boxing above all else is a business, where the promoters main goal is to make ****loads of money.
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2018
  4. Mark Adam

    Mark Adam Active Member booted Full Member

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    Britain is a small island and that would effect AJ`s viewing figures but before PPV came in boxing got brilliant figurs in Britain, Frank Bruno fought Joe Bugner and the viewing figures were 12 million, Chris Eubank fought Nigel Benn in a remath during the 90`s and the viewing figures were 17 million, so it`s not just that it`s a tiny viewing market it`s because of PPV being expensive when in the past boxing was really popular in the UK because it was shown for free, PPV has ruined boxing completely.
     
  5. Chuck Norris

    Chuck Norris Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    IMO the only reason Fury took the Wilder fight, because he was jealous of Joshua and wanted to steal his thunder, but after seeing how Fury looked last night. Wilder will whoop his ass.

    BTW Good post CST. :chuck:
     
  6. Chuck Norris

    Chuck Norris Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Also screw Fish Eyes Warren for cashing Fury out.
     
  7. 305th

    305th Fury drew, get over it Full Member

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    Great post @CST80, thanks.
     
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  8. 305th

    305th Fury drew, get over it Full Member

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    I remember watching Benn McClellan free on ITV on a Saturday night!
     
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  9. BCS8

    BCS8 Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Here's a thought experiment.

    Pitch the Fury we saw against Pianeta against the Povetkin we saw against Price.
     
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  10. Holler

    Holler Doesn't appear to be a paid matchroom PR shill Full Member

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    Good write up. I think the only context that's missing is where each fighter is in their respective careers. There's 4 years difference between them and AJ surely deserves some credit for the steeper trajectory in the levels of his opponents at a stage in his career where he had far less experience.
     
  11. DoubleJab666

    DoubleJab666 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I almost stopped when I misread 'Eric Molina - Molina is a subpar fighter' as 'Eric Molina - Molina is a superb fighter'.

    Luckily, I scanned again after a slug of coffee.

    There's a huge degree of relativism when the two boxer's resumes are placed side-by-side. Wilder's is so poor, people flip that fact to make the case AJ's is strong. It's not. But it is better. He's also the better fighter, but again that's exaggerated by the same people who overstate the difference in quality of their best wins.

    Then we hear: 'AJ has only had 21 fights, compare that to where Wilder was at after the same number'. Again, somewhat valid but then I'm not convinced AJ's physique will allow him a long career anyway. So he's in more of a hurry (despite claiming he wants another 10 years), especially as he doesn't want any long term health issues ;)

    Hearn also has a record of pushing fighters' careers, whereas Al is almost entirely the opposite. Consider how Wilder's career would have been handled by Matchroom. And yet people always blame the fighter for who they have or haven't boxed.

    Bottom line is, Wilder is not as bad as people wish to portray and AJ not as good.
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2018
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  12. Holler

    Holler Doesn't appear to be a paid matchroom PR shill Full Member

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    True, but these are grown men and eventually must take responsibility for their own careers.

    Agree with your second point, which is as much a reflection of how polarised and infantile the debate around this fighters has become.
     
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  13. bailey

    bailey Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I admit I havent read every single part so if you have... My bad, but I havent seen you post that Joshua has only had 21 fights compared to Wilder having had 40. That does make a massive difference.
    I havent seen you note either how Joshua is in comparison, learning on the job. He hasnt had 40 odd fights to get seasoned. He has been fighting in world title fights from and inclusive fight #16 and fight #15 was against Whyte.
    Very big difference when you see the difference in fights and progression, though I have said before that HWs get stepped up quickly in the UK
     
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  14. pipe wrenched

    pipe wrenched ESB ELITE SQUAD Full Member

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    Nice read CST80. ..:thumbsup:
     
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  15. DoubleJab666

    DoubleJab666 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I don't think it's easy for fighters to have that level of control over their careers, until they set up their own promotional company and manage themselves. Joshua would fight Wilder in a heartbeat, but Hearn would not allow it - we had that pretty much confirmed when Barry was quoted saying 'we would prefer this fight in two year's time'. Same can be said for Wilder in my view.
     
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