The P4P1 Election 2023 - One vote per person (intake closes 1/7/23)

You do make a great case!
Even if we agree-I think it comes down to this being very reasonable IF we decide that P4P means best at whatever weight, OR you add value for being able to move between weights effectively.
That is do we give a lot of extra credit for dominating at very varying weights, or just calculate how good a man is relative to his actual or potential peers at whatever weight?

I more often see Langford listed ~ 5'7.5", but know he has been listed an inch lower-& more often the lower heights are correct.
But however impressive a lack of height is in terms of how hard it is, technically P4P does not take height into account.

 

The way in which I apply my interpretation of P4P to my rankings is slightly more nuanced than an absolute take of your "either or" options.

When a fighter moves through the weights I try to consider whether it was a natural progression correlated with age-related growth or whether, regardless of weight, they were moving up and fighting naturally bigger men.

E.g. Langford averaged c.170-185lbs during his prime HW wins, but I don't consider his natural fighting weight being above, or even at, 175lbs, during his prime.

In 1911, age 25 he was 161lbs in a 20R draw vs McVea. At 168lbs a year later he KO'd the 205lbs McVea. I doubt a 25/26 year old Langford's natural fighting weight grew by c.20lbs over the next few years. More likely he ate well to add bulk for competing at HW. Certainly photos of him at +175lbs reveal him to have a, shall we say, rather smooth looking physique. As you'd imagine would be the case for a c.5ft 7ins pre-PEDs fighter at in excess of 175lbs.

So, whilst for many of his best HW wins he was technically a HW himself weighing over 175lbs, I suspect he'd have been capable of staying at MW, or very close to it, throughout his prime should he have wished to. I.e. i give him greater credit, from a p4p perspective, for his HW record than i would to a fighter weighing exactly the same for each fight, but who was closer to his natural fighting weight at those weights.

At the other end of the scale, whilst I accept being c.140lbs (I've read him as lighter) vs Gans is because he was a teenager, and not representative of his natural prime fighting weight, this should be offset, when evaluating his career, by the fact that as a green teenager he was good enough to beat a prime top 15 p4p all time fighter (as ranked 120 years later) in a fight contested close to that fighters best weight. That's absurd and hints at the exceptional talent Langford was.

 

SRR is my pick, but it pains me to be a general consensus man on it, considering I also think SRR was sincerely a douchenozzle as a man. But what he did and what I consider his prime form are just a little better than the best of anyone else, after all these years, for me. I learned here that Langford has a great case, as well as Greb, and a very dark horse case for Fitzsimmons, and when I started getting historical grasp and ever since, I've thought Armstrong's case was pretty wicked and I don't see how anyone would think it wasn't. As well as Irish Chocolate Baby Arm Taylor, aka Daniel Redcorn Saulberg being a reasonable shout, obviously. He beat Young Ezzard Charles III, after all. Seventy-three times, if you can believe it.

 

Sonny Liston.

 

George.

Edward.

Foreman.

 

I was going to vote Herbie Hide, but this Langford dude is starting to convince me. SRR is always in the discussion, and I’m going to throw in Roberto Duran for consideration too. I also like the cut of Henry Armstrong.

Sorry Herbie, with regret I’m going to have to eliminate you from my list for this year. If only you had sparked Riddick Bowe when you had the chance,eh, then who knows…!

 

Yeah, I get it, but hear me out: Foreman was almost as good as Sonny Liston.

 

ha

 

I never actually tried to make a pound for pound list. I would probably go with Sugar Ray Robinson if I did. But Sam Langford would rate high on any pound for pound list I make.

 

floyd.

 

SRR by a mile.
He had everything skill wise, both offensively and defensively.
Looks great on camera, and has the achievements to back up his claim.