The Paradigm Shift: Floyd Mayweather beats Sugar Ray Robinson

Discussion in 'World Boxing Forum' started by Gannicus, Aug 17, 2015.


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  1. Imperial1

    Imperial1 VIP Member Full Member

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    Translation

    Floyd has the advantage of un dectable ped's working with memo that will give him super human strength in order to beat a legend like SRR.
     
    Imperial1, Aug 17, 2015
    Imperial1, Aug 17, 2015
    #31
  2. VG_Addict

    VG_Addict Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Floyd doesn't take PEDs.

    I'm not saying Floyd would necessarily beat Robinson, I'm just saying that he would have the advantage of modern training and nutrition.
     
    VG_Addict, Aug 17, 2015
    VG_Addict, Aug 17, 2015
    #32
  3. Rumsfeld

    Rumsfeld Moderator Staff Member

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    Athletes more athletic? I don't think so, not in a natural genetic sense, anyway. Training methods are better,diets are better, drugs are better (legal and otherwise), but the human body doesn't just evolve where athletes are genetically superior over the course of a hundred years. It just doesn't work that way.
     
    Rumsfeld, Aug 17, 2015
    Rumsfeld, Aug 17, 2015
    #33
  4. Gannicus

    Gannicus 2014 Poster of the Year Full Member

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    Nice post.
    SRR is completely different to Maidana. Workrate has three processes that determine its effectiveness: a. Your condition b. The style of work. c. the quantity.
    Hence the way you described Mayweather makes for a better styles matchup against Robinson.

    Anyway, Maidana is 165lbs; benefits of decent training, recovery, technical sparring with fighters similar to the style of the opponent. He's not an exceptional athlete but his condition is fine for the modern fighter. You can't create a false dichotomy here.

    Mayweather is 'technically' more able than Robinson.
    There are 3 relevant fight philosophies:
    a. Centering your boxing around fighting for the KO.
    b. Outpoint by fighting
    c. Outpoint by not fighting

    SRR was dominantly in 'a'. When you have the overwhelming majority in your era with a fight philosophy of 'a', getting the KO becomes an easier task when you're the more skilled fighter of the two. Going by that philosophy and specialising in it means you directly forego some crucial benefits of the other philosophies.

    For the styles matchup -
    Robinson = operates behind the jab, operates more on the back foot - used to baiting guys into the fight by being programmed by the jab - through baiting his opponent, we see the part of the trade that SRR has mastered (and this is where you see all of these highlight KO's). This is not the competitive advantage vs Mayweather's style.
    NOT COMPARABLE speed, even for that eras standard.
    Beaten to the punch fairly often, open to counters, more stationary than desired - and not helped by his footwork that isn't all great. Mayweaether with his speed, reflexes, explosiveness would beat him to the punch, and with pure boxing ability that surpasses Robinson (something that SRR emphasises more than a Maidana).
    SRR used his athletic advantages and *boxing* when operating on the back foot and circling his opponent, Mayweahter beats him in this territory two-fold. Mayweather will undoubtedly be the ring general. SRR's inside game doesn't particularly stand out either. Mayweather isn't particularly vulnerable to uppercuts.

    You see clips of SRR and think 'WOW', but Mayweather is not a plodder fighting SRR's mastered fight. SRR was a fighter that would manipulate you in a fight, but if you create space, you see through the manipulation rather than fighting his fight and be programmed by his jab. SRR would return fire with combinations, but this would particularly work against someone who would lunge in and wasn't so defensively responsible as say Mayweather or Napoles. Robinson is good at setting traps but Mayweather's figured you out by mid-fight.
    Robinson's workrate is mainly with the jab, but it's a means to an end. He only goes in for the attacks you have in your mind sporadically.


    To make matters worse, Robinson was notorious for being a party goer till late nights and having a questionable diet.

    The two factors, poor condition + H2H matchup cannot be isolated but looked at together. Poor condition is actually an important premise to consider which massively influences H2H.
     
    Gannicus, Aug 17, 2015
    Gannicus, Aug 17, 2015
    #34
  5. Imperial1

    Imperial1 VIP Member Full Member

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    Floyd do t take ped's there are 3 failed test that say otherwise oh wait usada can't be reached for comment :lol:

    I personally don't see them fighting anyway since Robinson was much to big for him
     
    Imperial1, Aug 17, 2015
    Imperial1, Aug 17, 2015
    #35
  6. Gannicus

    Gannicus 2014 Poster of the Year Full Member

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    :good

    If Mayweather fought 100 times and fought 9 times in the recent year, and then faced a world champ 3 weeks before fighting Miguel Cotto who's primed to fight from all corners, Mayweather is not going to be sharp/crisp. He's getting beaten up by Cotto.
    Mayweather needs to be at his best to beat Cotto.
    But apparently, SRR can be in that condition where your athletic qualities are just of lower 'effective' expression, and beat everyone from Mayweather to Leonard. Confusing.
     
    Gannicus, Aug 17, 2015
    Gannicus, Aug 17, 2015
    #36
  7. HitBattousai

    HitBattousai Boxing Addict Full Member

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    How can you say SRR's conditioning is poor when the guy went 15 rounds consistently at a high workrate against the top level fighters of his time while taking a lot more punishment than Floyd can dish out? Floyd has never gone 15 rounds period. It doesn't matter if SRR was a party goer and had a questionable diet if that doesn't show up on fight night. Michael Jordan in basketball is well known to have done some of the same stuff over his career even during the playoffs at times, but he still practiced hard and his conditioning was still great on game night. Some athletes simply are more blessed than others in that regard and the argument that modern means better conditioning doesn't apply. And this is besides the detail that the general comparison here is the absolute best version of SRR at 147 against the best version of Floyd at 147.

    SRR was far more adaptable than you give him credit for. He liked to fight off the back foot, but he moved in for the kill and forced the fight on the inside depending on what he was up against. Floyd's single shots wouldn't give SRR pause. And even if you give Floyd the benefit of the doubt and say they did, Maidana was just one example of a simple gameplan that had success against Floyd, how about faded Oscar for another, who almost beat Floyd primarily due to his early success with the jab, until he got tired as he notoriously did(despite having access to modern training and conditioning) and stopped throwing it and allowed Floyd to potshot him from then on. SRR using the jab at range with a high workrate, where he had a better jab than Oscar with a length advantage forces Floyd to have to make a choice. He has to come forward against SRR under those circumstances, slip the jab, and open up more at closer range than he's shown he's comfortable with.

    You say the speed is not comparable, I think it is from what I've seen of both fighters. And again, even if you think Floyd is faster, that didn't stop guys that were significantly slower than him like Maidana, Oscar, etc, from giving him problems. SRR beats Floyd. The only question is whether Floyd lasts the distance or not.
     
    HitBattousai, Aug 17, 2015
    HitBattousai, Aug 17, 2015
    #37
  8. Gannicus

    Gannicus 2014 Poster of the Year Full Member

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    You didn't actually read my post, other than through your own tinted glasses and thus your mind had been made already, just disregarding basic principles and sports science. I've already addressed all of your points.
     
    Gannicus, Aug 21, 2015
    Gannicus, Aug 21, 2015
    #38
  9. andrewa1

    andrewa1 Boxing Addict banned Full Member

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    Excellent ****ysis.
     
    andrewa1, Aug 21, 2015
    andrewa1, Aug 21, 2015
    #39
  10. Leonit

    Leonit Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    That was especially evident in the first Castillo fight.
     
    Leonit, Aug 21, 2015
    Leonit, Aug 21, 2015
    #40
  11. Pimp C

    Pimp C Too Much Motion Full Member

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    SRR destroys any version of PBF:deal
     
    Pimp C, Aug 21, 2015
    Pimp C, Aug 21, 2015
    #41
  12. andrewa1

    andrewa1 Boxing Addict banned Full Member

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    They are because there are more of them. If you have a group of 20 athletes and a group of 40 athletes, the larger group's top performers will generally be more athletic than the smaller groups athletes. There are many more people and many more opportunities for naturally athletic people to participate in them now than before. Hence, top athletes today are generally more athletic than before.
     
    andrewa1, Aug 21, 2015
    andrewa1, Aug 21, 2015
    #42
  13. jesse

    jesse Well-Known Member Full Member

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    That's your opinion. There's nothing to suggest that Cotto can beat Floyd on any night. What we DO know is that Cotto got beat up and only won 3 rounds of a 12 round fight.
     
    jesse, Aug 21, 2015
    jesse, Aug 21, 2015
    #43
  14. FrankinDallas

    FrankinDallas FRANKINAUSTIN

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    SRR is bigger, stronger, and faced much better opponents overall than has Floyd. Remember that SRR was on his way to winning a LHW title when the heat got to him in the Bronx.

    Yes I realize that SRR fought at 147, but he easily went up to 160 and beyond; Floyd simply isn't big enough to do so.

    Probably a better comparison would be Floyd vs "Homicide" Henry Armstrong, who fought at 147 most of his career.
     
    FrankinDallas, Aug 21, 2015
    FrankinDallas, Aug 21, 2015
    #44
  15. Cap10Kirk

    Cap10Kirk Active Member Full Member

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    Floyd is a defensive wizard and if anyone could out point SRR in 12 rounds, it would be him. The OP is correct in that styles make fights. But I feel SRR's physical tools at 147 would be too much for Floyd to overcome. Willie Pep told a story on how he got his a** kicked by SRR in the amateurs. SRR was just too big for Pep.
     
    Cap10Kirk, Aug 21, 2015
    Cap10Kirk, Aug 21, 2015
    #45
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