The Quality of Marciano's Opponents

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by catchwtboxing, Apr 13, 2024.

  1. Melankomas

    Melankomas Prime Jeffries would demolish a grizzly in 2 Full Member

    Dec 18, 2022
    Sullivan clears Marciano's resume
  2. Pedro_El_Chef

    Pedro_El_Chef Member Full Member

    Mar 29, 2023
    Using the Louis rematch to judge Schmeling's ability is like using the Foreman fights to judge Frazier and Norton and the Liston fights to judge Patterson. You can't see what a fighter is capable of when they are destroyed in a single round. You talk about Tyson's opponents, Michael Spinks, one of the greatest light heavyweights of all time, looks average in the Tyson fight.
    Louis broke Schmeling's back in the rematch, of course he would try to hold on to the ropes, he couldn't even walk properly after they waved off the fight.

    You talk about progression of boxing skill from Louis' time to Patterson's. Why did Eddie Machen and Doug Jones lose to Harold Johnson then? Johnson was knocked out in a single round by Jersey Joe Walcott, a man who was losing to 1930s fighters.
    Jones almost held a 1960s Muhammad Ali to a draw, the only man to bring the closest version of a prime Ali near defeat, yet he couldn't beat 34 year old Johnson.
    The problem is that there is a severe lack of footage of pre 1960s fighters. The main source of footage we have of top 1930s guys are their championship fights against Louis, where they are getting obliterated. That issue is not exclusive to the Louis era, most heavyweight fights in the 1920s and 1930s were not filmed aside from the important championship bouts, or they were filmed but the footage was lost.

    The improvement came in the quality and abundance of fight footage and the promotion of fights with advertisement which was not as feasible in the pre television era.

    As for Deontay destroying Carnera, that is your opinion but advocating for a progression in skill by using Deontay Wilder as an example is a terrible basis for your argument.
  3. catchwtboxing

    catchwtboxing Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    Jul 4, 2014
    Yet Wallace was ranked in '53.

    Here is the shifting bar. When I point out the good fighters Matthews beat, it becomes "but what current heavyweight contender did he beat?" When I point out that Charles beat a current contender, it becomes "but who did HE bet."

    Charlkes beat two contenders to get his #1 spot back from Dan Bucceroni. That is all.

    Charles lost the two before those fights? VALDEZ LOST THE 4 BEFORE CHARLES, which is why Valdez was rightly not ranked #1.

    No more double standards please.
    Jason Thomas likes this.
  4. catchwtboxing

    catchwtboxing Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    Jul 4, 2014
    He was #2 contender. No one said he was still great, but he was still one of the best. That is all.
    Jason Thomas likes this.
  5. catchwtboxing

    catchwtboxing Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    Jul 4, 2014
    This was all answered above. Charles was #1 contender for beating two other contenders. Chop itg up any way you like. There is the reality.
  6. catchwtboxing

    catchwtboxing Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    Jul 4, 2014
    Baer defeated Schmeling, Carnera, and Campbell. Walcott defeated Elmer Ray, Charles...most would say Louis himself.

    Conn defeated Lee Savold, Bob Pastor, and others.
  7. PRW94

    PRW94 Active Member Full Member

    Nov 26, 2020

    Joe Louis might well have beaten any heavyweight boxer who ever lived, including Goliath of Gath, on the night of June 22, 1938. People go on and on and on and on about FOTC Frazier ... Schmeling 2 Louis doesn't take a back seat to FOTC Frazier IMO as far as a fighting machine to behold and it didn't take him very long to get it done. Schmeling was two years older than 1936, a fight that he deservedly prevailed in, and Louis was two years older and earth-shatteringly BETTER. It should not be a knock on Schmeling that he lost that night.
  8. Hotep Kemba

    Hotep Kemba Member Full Member

    Apr 19, 2023
    Should people because of the "competition" that existed in the era in which they fought... retroactively be penalized as far as historical assessment because they people they were put in front of them weren't suitably strong enough for some folks? ([/QUOTE]

    Yes. If you don't do this then you're just penalising other fighters for being unlucky enough to fight poor competition and rewarding fighters who were lucky enough to not be tested to the same extent.
  9. Jakub79

    Jakub79 Member Full Member

    Mar 3, 2024
    So in which fight did Schmelling move or show skills like Patterson? When I watch fights from those years, I see people who move strangely, hold their guard, have problems with distance, and do not look trained. Tony Galento could have been a monster in the 1930s, but today he would make you smile. Did you watch the Carner vs. Baer fight? Don't get me wrong, Louis was great but those times weren't great. Louis didn't beat anyone at the level of Liston, Frazier, Foreman, that's my opinion. That doesn't mean it shouldn't be higher, I think it is. But the question marks loom large the further back we go.
    Jason Thomas likes this.
  10. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

    Jun 2, 2006
    Valdes was ranked number one by the Ring in1953 and 1954 this is beyond dispute.
    Mathews was a hype job his own manager said, when he took him over he didn't really know how to fight despite his long column of wins.

    WHO DID WALLACE BEAT? It's a relevant question,imo.
    Seamus and Reinhardt like this.
  11. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

    Jun 2, 2006
    Nobody living has seen the full Louis v Walcott 1st fight.
  12. Glass City Cobra

    Glass City Cobra H2H Burger King Full Member

    Jan 6, 2017
    12 pages and the same old people still can't admit that much of Rocky's opposition had several issues in regards to their age/wear and tear.
  13. Jason Thomas

    Jason Thomas Boxing Addict Full Member

    Feb 18, 2019
    Jack Hurley might not be as great a source on Matthews as you believe. It is a case of covering a blunder by shifting blame. Here are some quotes from an on-line profile of Matthews and Hurley.

    "Hurley ignored critics' charges that the solid offer of a light-heavyweight championship fight with Maxim was better for Matthews than the offer of a 'heavyweight elimination bout' with Marciano. Supporters argued Matthews might well have beaten Maxim. Hurley, they insisted, pushed Matthews where he should not have gone."

    "The Marciano fight was no less a defining moment for Jack Hurley. Knowledgeable criticism of him for sending Matthews into the heavyweight division has endured. And Hurley had indeed felt the sting."

    "In later years Hurley sharpened his criticism to the press corps about Harry's 'glass jaw' and inability to hit with authority. But he had been discredited as a manager."

    What do I make of this? A bruised ego shifting blame is an old and common story.

    What was actually said at the time?

    The Associated Press report on the Bob Murphy fight--Harry Matthews "showed 6,922 fans in MSG some of the finest boxing seen around here in many years last night."

    W C Heinz on the Murphy bout--"Matthews would belt Murphy so that the cops with the duty out on Eighth Avenue must have felt it. It was the greatest exhibition of body punching I have ever seen."

    Murphy on Matthews--"He is terrific. It is like being hit by a freight train."

    Nat Fleischer Ring Magazine, February 1952, Page 38--"Robinson continues to stand out as the best all-around fighter in the middleweight division, though he lost prestige through his defeat by Turpin in Europe. While in the past we have honored Ray with the all-around championship, so far as ability was concerned, this time The Ring selects Harry Matthews as the world's best all-around fighter of the year. HIs cleverness, hitting power, ring generalship, and triumphs over all opponents regardless of weight, has gained for him the post occupied by Sugar Ray last year."
  14. swagdelfadeel

    swagdelfadeel Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    Jul 30, 2014
    Yeah I can’t get behind the notion, that it took an ATG to beat that version of Louis, like some here are suggesting
    PRW94 likes this.
  15. PRW94

    PRW94 Active Member Full Member

    Nov 26, 2020
    Yeah Joe was used up, if it weren’t for the tax man he should have been enjoying a life of leisure.