The Quality of Marciano's Opponents

We recently did just that with Jim Jeffries.

 

Which by itself, means nothing.
Shkor lost to;
Reynolds 183lbs
Bivins 185lbs
Sheppard 184lbs
Burman 185lbs
Boyd 187lbs
And drew with Clark 180lbs .

 

Can't argue with this logic.

 

I think Wilder is done tbh. The Fury trilogy seem to have taken a lot out of him (and Fury to). I don't think a win over him now would mean much tbh.

 

Probably. Wilder did look very lackluster, gunshy, and had an even lower work rate than usual, which says a lot because his work rate per round has been low in general.

I'm just saying, if Zheng can handle flush bombs from Wilder for multiple rounds, we can't dismiss his chances against Foreman. Obviously Foreman is better than a 38 year old gunshy Wilder, but Wilder still hits like a missile so Zheng's chin might hold up against Foreman. That's all I'm saying.

 

The question mark over Zhang is his stamina.

 

Then we need to find an appropriate extrapolation for Jeffries also.

 

That's because you already agree with me, so my extrapolation isn't for you.

 

Nice to know we are of one accord.

 

The Ring Magazine, February 1952 Page 38, Nat Fleischer:

"Robinson continues to stand out as the best all-around fighter in the middleweight division, though he has lost prestige through his defeat by Turpin in Europe. While in the past we have honored Ray with the all-around championship so far as ability is concerned, this time The Ring selects Harry Matthews as the world's best all-around fighter of the year. His cleverness, hitting power, ring generalship, and triumphs over all opponents regardless of weight, has gained for him the post occupied by Sugar Ray last year."

Your arguments are with the staff of The Ring. My take is they were there and knew whom Matthews defeated and how good he looked doing it. The issue isn't whether anyone agrees or doesn't. For me the point is they respected him enough to rate him above Robinson and Moore, among others. This doesn't jive with "never was" a "nothing" or a "complete hype job." He impressed folks at the time as being a talented fighter and possible champion.

"Johnson, Bucceroni, Pompey, Turpin, LaMotta, Slade, Barone, Satterfield"

What is this list supposed to prove. How many of these fighters did Johnson fight? Pompey? Turpin? Most of these guys didn't fight each other either. But why would fighting Bucceroni be more important than beating Murphy, who KO'd Bucceroni and La Motta? Or Nardico who stopped LaMotta and Barone? Or Layne who had beaten Satterfield as well as the incumbent champion, Walcott. And if you bring in Slade, he lost to Bucceroni who in turn had lost to Murphy.

 

All these big guys from earlier eras would have done this or that is a very unsupported premise. In and out fringe contender Eddie Blunt beat both Buddy Baer and Abe Simon in the early 1940's. These guys weren't world beaters.

"doesn't automatically mean he could beat large sluggers"

And it certainly doesn't prove he couldn't. The evidence is that he fought 5 men over 210 lbs., three over 220, and knocked all of them out.
Like many big punchers back then, he blew out the big guys he got in the ring with.

You can certainly argue that this is not enough evidence to be convincing. Okay. But there is no actual factual evidence for the reverse at all. My take is a lack of evidence means we just don't know and can't know.

 

Hate to break it to u every punch stat is in favor of Marciano in this department. The only thing hilarious is ur willingness to not accept cold hard facts and laugh in the face of the obvious. U would think the guy who got stopped three times v the guy who never got stopped would have the worse defense but no ur right. A southern woman would be blessing ur heart

 

"Johnny Flynn"

Another poster brought him up.

"Maxim was conceding 26 lbs. to Flynn. Gomez was conceding 32 lbs."

What does this have to do with heavyweight boxing? It is not a legit criticism of Flynn to say he was heavier.

*I note that if one is trying to make a case for a 'weak" era, the fighters are criticized both for being heavier and for being smaller. Nice to argue from both sides of the fence.

 

If u can’t c the defensive prowess ur not looking. U don’t go a career in the HW division and not get knocked out w bad defense. If u actually watch his fights it’s obvious the man never gets hit w a combo. Ever. Extremely rare to see him get hit w two consecutive punches. Archie has stated this as well as other opponents in that he is much harder to hit than they thought he would be. Often stating the only thing available to hit was the top of his head. Not sure y u wouldn’t take his opponents and top tier corners word for it. Also the damn punch stats back it up. Odd hill to die on when u have stats against u and corners against u and opponents word against u. Just let it go ur wrong on this one

 

This from an article on Matthews by Seattle based site a decade back sums Matthews up nicely...

"The World Boxing Club, which sanctioned title fights in those days, did not have Matthews listed among its top 10 contenders. In fact, at 180 pounds Matthews really was a blown-up middleweight who had to snarf pies and ice cream to resemble a light heavyweight. And while Matthews had won 37 consecutive fights, he had mainly plowed through, as one newspaper put it, a "spate of stiffs."

The best that could be said for Matthews was that he might be able to stay with Marciano for a few rounds if he could maneuver the savage swinger from Brockton, MA., into a style of fight that did not suit him. The worst that could be said: it was only a matter of time before Matthews' jaw got in the way of one of Marciano's fists.

In the weeks before what one scribe called a "monstrosity of a mismatch," even Matthews confided in friends that he wasn't certain he belonged in the ring with Marciano. Most of Matthews' supporters agreed, concluding that Matthews never should have been paired against Marciano, and would not have been without the spectacle of bluster spewed across the continent by the man who trained, managed and promoted him, a Machiavellian schemer named "Deacon" Jack Hurley."