With all the bruce le worship, I will be be providing the real people who MMA owes its existence to. The people who actually fought, fought with no rules, putting their image on the line. Here is Helio Gracie vs Kimura, probably the best fighter in the world at the time. (ignore the gracie propoganda voice over) [yt]mSPL2BFepgU[/yt] Here is Gene Lebell, the godfather of mixing grappling styles, fighting Milo Savage, a good boxer [yt]Jyo0i15rBCo[/yt] Here is Carlson Gracie vs Waldemar Santana, probably the most well rounded fighter in Brazil. They fought many times, this clip isn't the greatest, but it is much closer to modern MMA than anything bruce ever drempt up [yt]XYOnrcLLIb0[/yt] Here is Jack Dempsey, who wrote a book about his training of the Coast Guard in boxing, wrestling, and judo, essentially modern MMA. [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmaPxa-eZss[/ame] Here is a documentary on luta livre vs bjj, sorry its in portugese, but you get to see great footage) [yt]YdoIxYzZr2Q[/yt] Here is Don the Dragon Wilson, who was a great kickboxer, and also did judo, and says he competed in some NHB matchs, but unlike Bruce Lee lovers I refuse to count them since they can't be proven. [yt]6K5Jw1TPPOg[/yt] These men are the ones who deserve the respect for making MMA what it is today, they were actuall fighting MMA while Bruce Le was cha cha dancing. Unfortunately these men were not actors and, they didn't blend their fighting with stolen quotes from mediocre philosophers, so they aren't called the godfathres of MMA, but thats exactly what they are. Each and every one of them had more to do with MMA than bruce ever did, and every last one of them would beat bruce as bad as they wanted to, Hell, Gene Lebell did. I will add more videos as I think of them.
Good videos, Beebs. Could have done without all the Bruce Lee hate you keep spewing - but good stuff nonetheless.
the old school vale tudo fights are cool as hell, i think to have been around in that era (basically my age now...then) and witness the fights woul dhave been tight
Beebs, that was some good footage; and I must say you are one of the better posters in this mma forum. I do, however, have a few problems with your opinions on Lee. As well as a couple problems with the mostly good footage you provided. As for the footage, Gene Lebell was facing less danger than most of the demonstrations I've seen Bruce Lee in. In fact, Savage made it look like Lee faced more danger on the set than Lebell did in their recorded match. Savage was not trying to hit Lebell. Then there is the inclusion of Don Wilson. Wilson is a legendary kick boxer; and other than working as an mma commentator, done little to nothing as an "mma godfather." Bruce Lee's great fighting ability is unproven for the most part. I'll give you that. It is also a bit silly to see an unproven commodity frequently listed in mythical match-ups. I don't see giving credit to Bruce Lee as being one of the first mma fighters. Bruce Lee is one of the earlier mma practioners. Lee put countless hours and numerous years into becoming well rounded. Lee studied everything from fencing to boxing to wing-chun. Lee trained with Joe Lewis. He trained with Gene Libell to improve his submission knowlegde. He trained with Wall Jay, of Small Circle Jujitsu fame. He trained with Kareem Abdul Jabar, and improved his basketball skills. I read an article once, and he stated that Lee did not care to learn all of the subtleties of ground fighting. Jay said that all Lee was concerned with was ending a fight as soon as possible when hitting the ground. I really don't know how good Jay's own ground game is. Still, Jay's statements lead me to believe that Lee's ground game would be lacking to say the least. You can't ingore Lee's quest in being well rounded, and his goal for finding what is truly effective. You also can't deny Lee's popularity and influence on martial arts as a whole. I bet you that Lee paid more attention to grappling than two of the fighters used by you as examples, Helio Gracie and Gene Lebell, ever paid attention to striking. Gracie and Lebell may have been able to take Lee in an mma fight, but they wouldn't be as well rounded.
What are you talking about Milo not trying to hit Savage? That was a real fight, not a demonstration, Savage was absolutely trying to hit Lebell and he was in real danger of losing. Lebell actually put his abilities to the test against a dangerous, resisting, fighter. You seriously need to read up on this fight, becase everything was stacked against LeBell, changing fighters, changing rules, everything. bruce never faced anything remotely close to being in a real fight with a proven fighter very capable of winning. I got Wilson and Benny Urquidez mixed up, Benny was the one who was the Judo blackbelt and possibly fought some NHB or mixed style fights. What is the whole idea of fighting? Be it NHB, MMA, or even Jet Kun Do? What is the real purpose? Being well rounded? No, its about being able to win, by whatever means possible. bruce's whole idea was to take what is useful from each style and blend it together, if that was truely his goal, being well rounded wouldn't matter at all. Being well rounded is worthless if you can't fight.
Milo Savage was not punching hard at Lebell. He was rarely even punching. How many punches does this boxer throw here? Over 1 1/2 minutes pass by before the fight jumps to another scene, and Savage had attempted 1 half ass punch in 100 seconds. I looked up Milo's record. It was a little better than 50/50, and he had around 90 or so fights. A professional boxer of even Milo's character would have been more willing to let his hands go against Lebell if the fight was truly on the level. Milo seems to go minutes at a time without making an attempt to hit Gene. If Gene was ever in danger of losing, it was on some footage that is being skipped over. That fight was a farce. Inoki and Ali was more of a struggle. You seriously need to watch this "fight." If you are really trying to win by any means necessary, then wouldn't you want to know by all means in which this were possible? How effective are you going to be if you are trying to win a fight against someone you can't knock out, and all you know how to do is strike? How are you going to win against someone you can't submit, and all you know how to do is grapple? If you are trying to win by any means necessary, you should attempt to learn all means that are possible.
The video is edited obviously, both fighters were wary of the others ability, the point is it was a real fight, not some staged demonstration, both participants were trying to win. The point is bruce was clearly behind these individuals as innovators and a world behind as a fighter, and they proved it, their style won them fights, real fights, and devloped the styles that modern MMA fighters use. Being well rounded is neutral, if you win real fights with your style you have no need to be well rounded. bruce on the other hand started with kung fu, and then "mastered" each useful art in a year or two from books and a few classes, never competing, never fighting. MMA was born of these fighters and it pisses me off that some actor who liked martial arts gets the credit for it. Lee may have reached the same conclusion on his own, but it had already been done, and it had already been done much much better.
It even gives this thread more credibility since this thread was created by a Godfather itself. Beebs is the godfather of transvestite gay sex.
Hey, your mom told me it was just a really big clit. Moving on to the grownups. Cross_Trainer has already outlined MMA from ancient greece to the modern day in this thread http://www.eastsideboxing.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4580
Beebs, if you look back at my first post in this thread, you'll see that I agree that Bruce was not a mma fighter. I'm just saying that his presence must by tolerated in such areas, because he was a mma practioner. MMA is an acronym for Mixed Martial Arts. Bruce did mix martial arts. If Benny Urquidez is far enough in the past for you consider him to be a pioneer, or godfather; Lee would have to fit in time wise. Lee was before Urquidez. Let me emphasize, I realize you are picking Urquidez because he proved his abilities in a competion form of combat. Urquidez was a fighter. I'm counting Lee as a pioneer, but am not declaring his worth as a fighter. Lee's reputation is built primarily on legend, and I like to have a little more input before I consider someone's chances in a mythical fight.
Bruce Lee is given credit by whom for creating MMA? Provide a link. If you can't see how his teachings had an influence on fighters for decades then you're just blind from drinking your own hateraid. By his own admission, Don the Dragon Wilson was influeneced by Bruce Lee. Anyway - you're shooting holes in your own argument. Bruce Lee was a fighter and was well known to have been involved in several altercations long before his television or movie career and all the way through both. Just because they weren't filmed doesn't mean they never happened. In fact - he was involved in challenges because he went against Chinese tradition by teaching gung fu to Westerners. Judo Gene Lebell is the one that helped Bruce learn submissions and grappling.
Why does the subject of Bruce Lee cause so much hate? Why don't we see the hate for guys like James Figg or someone like Dioxippus? Guys who through story and legend fought but there is no video of it, so by some peoples reasoning, they can't be proven hence they may not have actually happened. I am not one of those people that NEED video evidence to believe certain thing actually happened. Its kind of like god, you can't prove or disprove its existance so why get pissy with each other.
