Now, this isn't meant as a roll-call for the usual suspects to rattle off their glass-jaw catcalls. So usual suspects, begone unless you have something intelligent to contribute. This is intended to be a discussion - and debate, within reason - of the nature of one's ability (or inability) to retain consciousness, withstand knockdowns, and quickly and effectively recover from a clean blow to the head (bodyshots are a little more straightforward - damage to the internal organs is either going to be in such a location and delivered with adequate force as to cause debilitating, on-your-hands-and-knees-for-a-10-count pain, or it isn't - pretty simple...this oddity notwithstanding: http://www.freepatentsonline.com/1679174.pdf) I say debate within reason, because the goal here is for us all to arrive at a common understanding, to dispel common misconceptions, and to promote knowledge. Knowledge should be shared, not inflicted; and new ideas met with a student mentality, not a shield on one's arm. Now, there are several considerations - with theories, disputes, and myths abounding - relating right from the outset to just exactly how to define what constitutes or contributes to "chin". There is the argument that certain physiological cues - namely the shape and density of the bones and musculature in and around the neck, trapezius, and actual jaw - are the keys to one's predilection for staying erect and coherent following a blunt force trauma. Any scientific data or expert testimony to support or debunk either side (or any alternative/compromising theory) is welcomed and encouraged. There is the argument that one's figurative chin is a predetermined genetic trait as opposed to a conditional (or even psychosomatic) factor. Any scientific data or expert testimony to support or debunk either side (or any alternative/compromising theory) is welcomed and encouraged. There is the argument that one can be "ruined"; ie have there future punch resistance lessened by a particular instance of abuse. Not directly related to this, but in line with the idea of "chin" being flexible and not a constant lifelong attribute, are the ideas that the stability of one's whiskers can increase or decrease in correlation to any of the following conditional criteria: the progression of age, fluctuations in weight in either direction (and even more specifically, the means and rate of fluctuation), diet (yeah, this has been said), etc. Any scientific data or expert testimony to support or debunk either side (or any alternative/compromising theory) is welcomed and encouraged. Anyone is free to add additional subtopics to open up for review under this heading. To some, the "truth" behind existing or added subtopics may seem academic, but as the goal here is common understanding your patience with the learning curve is appreciated. Thank you for participating (either as an advocate and educator, or by exercising restraint and following as an interested but uninformed party), and for not turning this thread into bull****. :good
A puncher can lose punch resistance if he or she receives a study diet of concussions. Everyone is human even boxer, and its a fact that getting your brain rattled enough in its case can cause damage, and losing one ability to take punishment is one .. conditioning of the neck at traps is one way to keep from getting seriously injured and can help a fighter remain up right, but it does not help if a fighter does not learn how to avoid a punch.. Being able to take a punch is one thing, but taking punches just to take punches is another. I also believe there are fighters out there that are naturally more punch resistant then other, just as there are fighter who are faster then other. but just like any other physical gift like speed, and quick reflexes they erode over time and fighter had better have boxing skill to compensate for the loss.
I'm a strong believer in excessive weight draining, having a negative effect on punch resistance. As the body is so restrcited of water, it gets it from other places, such as the brain. The normal level of water on the brain allows the brain to be cushioned as the punch lands, instead of rattling off the skull. Basically, the less water in the brain, the more a punch will hurt a fighter. There are common examples. Two active fighters I look to ate Miguel Cotto and David Haye. Both struggling to take a good punch in fights they were drained, for example, Torres and Mormeck. However, when fighting at a healthy weight, Mosley and Valuev, both fighters showed much better punch resistance. There are things which can improve a chin, such as neck muscle, but generally, the idea that a chin cannot be improved is right as it's as natural as punching itself. However, a chin can be affected by overly excessive weight draining.
It's difficult to really say there's any science surrounding it. Everytime I think I have an idea, hmmm, maybe the muscles in and around the neck help, some guy with a 21" neck gets KO'd. Same thing with jaw shape. I think it really just depends on how tough the guy is, if he sees the shots coming, and how well he tucks his chin. I'm not convinced that there's some trait that gives you a good chin whether it be jaw size, jaw shape, face muscles, neck muscles, anything.
I think the subtleties of technique and non-physical traits are sometimes lost when making reference to punch resistance. Not to say that you can make up for a completely terrible chin (caused by weight drain or whatever other genuine reason), but i think theres a lot more to punch resistance than simply being born with it, or without it, which is how its generally depicted. Lots of little factors like how early you read punches, your footwork/base, rolling with punches, or even how you react to punches mentally. Physically, things like the strength of the stabilising muscles around your neck, your core and leg strength definitely have some bearing. Its hard to know how or why some people can take a punch so well, but i am not convinced its purely genetic. The trainer at my gym is an ex heavyweight kickboxer, and he can simply take punches like they are thrown by Paulie Malignaggi. Even by very big guys. Even when he is doing a Ricardo Mayorga routine, allowing them to punch him flush, and appearing to not use any techniques to mitigate the punch, they don't have effect. Not only do they not put him in a state of hurt, they don't actually move his head, which i think could play a big technical role. Its hard to believe one man can do this, and another can't even stop his legs from wobbling under a jab, purely because he was genetically gifted with 10% more fluid protecting his brain, etc etc. I don't really have a set view one way or the other, those are just some random thoughts on the matter.
I believe that punch resistance has to do with these factors - age. for obvious reasons - bone density. more dense = better - neck size. shorter and wider = better. - legs. shorter and stronger = beter - experience, if the fighter has been exposed to taking clean shots to the jaw. the same idea as with fighter getting hit with a heavy medicine ball to the stomach in training. it helps increase resistance I believe that a fighter's chin can be ruined by a single knock out. If I fighter has avoided getting hit clean on the chin his whole life and is finally hit hard and knocked out, can condition his brain to react in the same way next time he gets hit like that. I think this could be avoided if the fighter got the experience of being hit clean in training and early in his boxing career. How a fighter recovers when hurt has to do with how he trains and his experience with overcoming adversity. for example; training for 12 rounds straight with out any rest between rounds is better than training for 15 rounds straight with 1 minute break between rounds.
you never know. never. a long necked guy like corrales could take hits all day- and not get knocked out- but would get knocked down regularly. so he s a good example of someone who had tremendous heart- yet fragile nerves in his chin - so he was able to both overcome his chin- yet limited by it. someone like margarito has an amazing jaw- takes hits like anything- but - as against mosley showed- had had his resitance to punches wear him over. as soon as u come up with a theory- that holds true- theres a counter argument-= as thesandman just said. and its not always bout heart either. some great boxers that have alot of heart- simply cabt get up when hit hard.
I think the brain would be the last place to sacrifise fluid when a fighter is weight drained. while i do believe that there's a strong corelation between weight drain and punch resistance, the muscles in the neck, traps, and legs are probly alot more effected than the cushioning fluid around the brain
perhaps the single most important trait. willing to take that punch and not be shocked by the impact.weight drained fighters obviously are less resistant to blows. seeing the shot coming and tensing the neck muscles readying your chin or slightly going with the punch naturally like andrade does.
I would like to weigh in on this matter. I work in close proximity with several sports medicine physicians and have started some conversations and let them duke it out. What I have witnessed said by M.D.s very from dr to dr, but they all seem like they could be credible. 1- chin/mandible shape. Particularly in the mentum(or tip of the chin). If it comes to a point and a punch is squarely landed here, the force is distributed over a smaller area making that force more potent and the jaw can slide back into the nerves behind the jaw easier that when tweaked, can cause temporary paralysis- these are your flash KOs. 2- a punch that lands in or around the ear can destabilize you as it messes with your equilibrium by violating your ear canal and tempanic membrane (you also get a nasty ringing or scratching sound). 3- thicker/stubbier/shortent neck. this increases the weight of the base of your head. as in #2 where the force was dispersed over a small area, this disperses the force over a larger area decreasing the overall "shock" of the punch. Think- would it be easier to knock the pyramids over, or a telephone pole. 4- diet - they were saying plays a larger role than a lot of people think. You need oxygen to get to your brain. If you don't get that, you pass out for usually around 10-15 seconds with a condition called orthostatic hyprtension. with this, you see the figher get knocked down and try to fight the 10count using anabolic stabilty and coordination. It looks like they are going to make it up, and then collapse again. There were more, but i will ask them again tomorrow to get the facts just right- because without facts, what good is this thread
Intentional, your crazy for trying to foster an intelligent discussion in this GF. Anyway, Let me dig what I found on this topic
http://www.eastsideboxing.com/forum/showthread.php?t=89493 Fascinating vid touching indirectly on this topic Gets to boxing at around 5:00 or so, but the whole thing is really a great watch