The Speed of Post Exile Ali

In terms of hand speed, I think the 1970s Ali at times did approach the same level as he had in 1960s, but as far as overall speed - defensive moves, and feet speed - he was significantly less fast.

 

Agree. He had really fast hands as late as Manilla.

 

The best Ali looked athletically in the 70's is the Frazier rematch for me. That shouldn't be, seeing he had just turned 32 and came off wars with Frazier and Norton, but there it is.

The first rounds of Norton II as well.

 

Ali always had quick hands but prime Ali was exceptionally quick fisted. His jab was so quick opponents had trouble avoiding it and it had slashing cutting power. Remember Ali's hand speed (jab) in his prime was measured vs SRR. Ali's jab was faster.

 

I agree! In Frazier 2 we saw Ali move again for the first time since his return in a way other heavies never could, and again as you said in the opening rounds of Norton 2. In Quarry 1 I thought his hand speed equaled what he showed against Foley and Williams but but the third round he seemed pretty tired to me making me wonder if he could carry that out for a whole fight.

 

I don't recall any of the scribes or boxing mags thinking it debatable, Ali returned to being able to stay on his toes for long stretches while landing jabs and the straight right while Joe, hampered by Eddie Futches changing his style (this fight only) in an attempt to make him less hitable landed a few big right hands but no big left hooks as in their first go and for Joe a low amount of body punches. The ref let Ali hold behind the head which didn't help Joe and Ali won a clear decision.

 

Ali was holding from the opening seconds and continued to hold at regular intervals, possibly every twenty seconds or so. For the whole 12 rounds.
Despite people marvelling at his "being able to stay on his toes" and move, he still could not keep Frazier from closing on him, hence the holding.
On top of this, Ali landed a lot of his "punch count" with slaps that used the inside of the glove, which are not scoring blows.

If the referee can't stop Ali holding and won't deduct a point, we can still score what we think is the better boxing in the rounds.
I tend to think holding and landing blows with inside of glove is poor boxing. I don't need to penalize, I just don't count that as good boxing.
Others seem to count that as good boxing.
I think the Frazier rematch is Ali's most overrated performance.

Frazier was digging that left hook into Ali's right side all night, heavy proper punches.

 

Watching the fight without the biased commentary, klompton may well have been right.
I'm not sure I believe Ali beat Frazier here at all.

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=maA4QACDXOY[/url]

[yt]maA4QACDXOY[/yt]

Ali's holding Frazier behind the neck with his left hand and immobilizing Frazier's left arm with his right glove behind the elbow.
THROUGHOUT THE FIGHT.

Also, a lot of the straight long punches Ali throws miss badly, and he follows up with non-scoring slaps.

Meanwhile Frazier is fighting, boxing, generally very much within the rules.

Not sure why this performance has become a mythical cornerstone in the Ali legend. It was a poor performance. I understand why people hyped and lauded it at the time, caught up in Ali's long roadshow trip towards another title shot, and the prospect of the Foreman fight and all the fun Ali was bringing.
But now, looking back, that was a dull display of grabbing and spoiling.

 

I thought he landed plenty of good punches as well. He landed the single most hurtful punch for one thing. A draw is not out of the question, since it's not inconceivable to score rds 4 and 12 for Frazier. He definitely won 5, 7, 8 and 10. But I think Ali edged both. In rds 1-3, 6, 9 and 11-12 Ali landed some very nice punches and combinations.

Yes, he slowed down the action by holding, but the question here was his speed and he showed very good speed when the action was ongoing. With both hands and feet. That's clear as day for me.

 

I am suprised there wasn't more of an outcry about the way the fight was refereed.

 

Isn't that a contradiction.
If he was showing very good speed with his feet how is he allowing Frazier to close on him to make him resort to holding so often ?
Unless Frazier was exhibiting remarkable and improved foot speed too, it's unlikely to occur that way.
And personally I thought Frazier was clearly slower on his feet than he had been 3 or 4 years earlier.

 

Ali criticized the referee for mistakenly stopping the fight in round 2 when he had Frazier wobbly.
I think Ali went on to say the referee was in with the mob and also he called him a "sp!c" sometime. Typical Ali. I think the referee (Perez?) sued him for one or both those things.
Futch and Frazier complained about the holding. But generally there was no outcry, people were enjoying the Ali show.

Holding behind the head like that was always in Ali's repetoire, even in his prime. But he took it to new levels against Frazier. I think later in the rematch with Leon Spinks he did an awful lot of holding too.
Holding is poor boxing, imo, and if only one of the fighter's is at it then that should be judged against.
Wladimir has been terribly guilty of it as we all know.

Unfortunately at heavyweight often it is BOTH fighters holding. But I don't believe Frazier was at fault in that 1974 match at all.

 

You get tired by moving. Especially at speed. He used the clinches as breathers to a large degree.

Tunney held Dempsey a fair lot. Despite being quite a bit quicker at that stage.

 

Ali was holding from round 1 onwards, a lot. From the opening seconds. I counted 11 (ELEVEN!) holds initiated by Ali in the 1st round alone.
He wasn't tired.

Frazier was getting inside a lot, that's why. Ali's leg speed was lacking.

 

He knew he had to pace from the off, that's why he held from the off. To apply your game plan from the start is just basic strategy.

But why make this theoretical? Let's just use our eyes, shall we. He was fast on his feet.