The Speed of Post Exile Ali

Here's Dempsey-Tunney 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rkwNb4IQXY

1974 Ali is faster than Tunney in my eyes (incidentally, I counted 12 or 13 clinches initiated by Tunney in rd 1). But I have to say that I'm impressed with how Tunney took the fight to Jack. He looks terrific.

 

Tunney's performance against Dempsey is overrated too.
Tunney was not particularly fast on his feet.
I don't think Ali looked fast on his feet in 1974 either. Bounding around the ring sideways doesn't mean he's fast. Yes, his leg speed might have been an improvement on 1971 but then Frazier was less intense in 1974 anyway.

 

Well, I think my original statement (but I could be wrong) was that Frazier II was him at his fastest post-exile - relatively in other words.

But I do struggle coming up with HWs that were faster than Ali in Frazier II. Perhaps Patterson and Tyson in their prime, but not that much in it if you look to overall speed, I'd say.

 

Frazier himself felt he lost fight 2.

Clinching to smother a brawling puncher goes backlash LONG way. Tunney did similar vs Tunney to neutralize his inside attack.

 

Vs Dempsey

 

i'd agree with that, I'll also say that because of these abilities declining noticeably, he has the ability to land more punches. If we consider what a good puncher Ali was in terms of technique, placement, speed and power it nullifies his overall decline as a boxer very nicely, hence his fantastic longevity.

 

Perry caught slipping tryna get that post count up

 

Not at all. Ali was able to stay on his toes for the entire fight for the first time during his comeback, something only a few like Tunney were ever able to do, had good speed, threw good long range punches that were often landing,,,,and quick landing counters often as Joe pressed in. No, they were not non-scoring inside of the hand punches but correctly thrown short hooks and uppercuts landing across the knuckles and no punch has to be hard to build up points. The other matter is Joe's body punches, there were far fewer then in their other bouts partially due to Ali's clinching and holding his arm in close. A very skilled, well distanced, and clear win for Ali.

 

A clear 7-5 win for Ali here.

 

He's not staying on his toes an entire fight if he's clinching every 20 seconds. These claims make no sense.
A vast amount of time he's standing still clutching Frazier around the neck, other times he moving, other times he's standing his ground flat-footed trying to land a few hard punches.
The footage is right there.

It's a strange rationalisation of the myth going on. No one's denying that he's holding and stalling and static for a lot of the fight, it would be preposterous to deny that and I'm glad people at least accept that ..... and yet they go on to say "dancing for 12 rounds", "on his toes an entire fight" etc.
-- "Oh that? he was taking breathers so he could move a lot!"

In other words, he didn't do that much moving and dancing at all, he stalled the action and fought in much reduced spurts, on his toes for very short periods and was flat-footed and neck-holding at least as much as he was dancing.
The film is right there.

 

I agree on both counts. The 1974 version of Muhammad was still faster than most prime incarnations of heavies that came before and after him.

Tunney was a terrific boxer.

 

Ok then, which HW, besides prime Ali, has moved more over 12 rds than Ali did in that fight?

And, to go back to the TS questions: Which HWs were faster at that time? And which HWs, before or since, have been faster?

 

But it doesn't matter what you say, Ali is above critique for many. Forget that Joe was basically shot in this fight, which enables Ali to evade him better than in FOTC. Substitute the strange logic where Ali suddenly rediscovers footwork and fresh legs 3 years after FOTC.

In my opinion Frazier has slipped significantly in this fight and Ali has retained more of his ability. Ali from their first fight would have destroyed THIS Frazier.

 

I would hardly say that Joe was shot in that fight. Past his 1969-71 very best but he was still pretty dangerous. At that point in time,with the exception of Ali and Foreman,I can't see any other top heavy around in '74 that would have beaten him.

Even though Ali would never again be as good physically as he was circa 1966-67,he was actually better in my opinion in the second fight with Joe than he was in the first. He'd retained as much speed plus sharper and in better condition.

 

By the way, I scored it 6-6 in rounds.