The subtle sadness in Ali’s greatest moment...

That is my recollection too.

 

This is true but If Muhammad Ali had been around in WW2 he most likely would have refused to serve in that war too.
Just as his leader Elijah Muhammad and a whole lot of his followers in WW2 refused to serve.

 

Probably, yes.

And it would make sense to me not to serve in armed forces where you're segregated against for a country where you... well, the same thing.

Of course, things would hardly be better under Nazi rule but a de facto invasion of the US wasn't really in the cards at that point, I'd say.

 

Well, yes, many African-Americans had a very good argument to not served for a country that didn't provide them with basic civil rights.

On the other had, the pay in the U.S. army at the time was real good and they had chance to come to Europe and get as much pu$$y as any other Yank ..... and Nazis were evil anyway .... so that's a good counter-argument.

 

Hel no I didn't support the war. But neither was I going to come up with a BS excuse about religion to avoid it. I don't care what Thurgood Marshall said or did....claiming your Islamic religion provides you a protection against war is ridiculous and historically inaccurate.

 

It's funny, in the initial statements Ali made to the press when news arrived that he was being reclassified and drafted, his reasons seemed to be solely about how much money he paid in taxes and how unfair it was that a high-earner like him was expected to join the army. He didn't mention being a minister of religion. And he only said "I aint got no quarrel with the Viet Cong" when pressed with questions about Viet Cong that he didn't have knowledge to answer. But that's what grab the attention of the anti-war and anti-imperialist elements, and became to start of the whole "he took a stance on the unjust war" angle, which is largely a myth.
A lot of the Ali myth is the same kind of thing.

 

Who knows. My 5 cent is that it was more about a gut feeling than a thought out maxim in any way to start with. Going to the war, even for a cushy tour of exhibitions, would see him lose one or two of his best years and lots of earnings, and he probably saw little reason to that for a country where he had gown up as a second rate member in a war that didn't make sense to him. I think I would feel very much the same in his shoes.

Anyhow, he stayed and faced the music, even though I agree that the defence seemed a bit made up after the fact.

Ali said and done some things that I certainly don't agree with, but his stance on not going to the Vietnam war seems very understandable to me.

 

Yes, I'm just not sure what he motives were to start with, and whether they developed one way or another. A lot of people have projected a lot onto it.

I agree with you on that, whatever his motives really, he did stick it out and faced professional ruin and serious consequences, and a whole lot of stress. That took a great degree of resolve and courage even.

 

I don't know what my own motives were to start with a lot of the time, so tough as hell to know about other people.

And who knows, often you will answer a question differently depending on mood, blood sugar etc. And a guy like Ali, with his pride and the scrutiny of him could well lock himself into the first answer he gave on a certain subject.

But I feel that he, at that time, always would be deeply uncomfortable with doing something like that for a state that he at the very best deeply mistrusted, And of course, it probably didn't help that he would have to give up a very nice life style and some of his best years as an athlete.

 

Dempsey dodged the draft in 1917/18. He was hugely unpopular with the public in his early years, even after beating Jess Willard. He was portrayed in cartoons as a slacker. When he fought decorated hero Georges Carpentier, it was reported that the crowd was 50/50.
Louis was revered by everyone but the US Government, who charged him Tax on the purses he gave to the Army and Navy Relief Funds.
"I ain't got nothin' 'gainst them Viet Cong", is arguably the turning point in young public opinion against the Vietnam War.
The sudden, brutal, removal of Joe Louis from the picture at that moment was a sign of the times. Joe deserved far better but then, Joe always deserved far better.

 

He joined the Coastguard in WW2. He was too old for front line service by then.

 

Poor Joe was a virtual outcast in Boxing at that time. I totally get why but it's still dreadfully sad.

 

Thank you my friend for the info,

 

We are in agreement, neither of us supported that ridiculous war that got LBJ elected in 1964, it was for like I said for economical purposes, and trying to make the Vietnamese people embrace our beliefs by burning down villages. Again, it was none of our business what and how they believed. I am like this, You Do Your Thing, And I will Do My Thing. The Vietnam war was a war that we were not supposed to win, because if we had gone in full force, it would been over, how does it help the economy?. But we had a warmongering Commander In Chief. Like I have posted, if our great nation was attacked, I would be one of the first to defend it, but to change other's beliefs, no way. I do not like communism, but that is their choice to live how they want to. I am nobodies puppet.