The Theory of "Modern Training Methods" Being Superior

And no imagine those two guys against SRR ... boxing has evolved my ass.

 

Only Whitaker's opponents would have. As much as we'd like to think we know, we have no idea. The same way I don't really know if Dempsey was slower than Tyson, or if Tunney was more skilled than Ali.

 

A 10.4 100 meter sprinter, really? There were plenty as fast as him, don't know how many made it to the gridiron. Johnson is fairly lucky to play in an era of oversized LB's, who can one-off an impressive 40 time but by the 2nd quarter are huffing and puffing and going at grandma speed.

 

ok,if you talk just about physical preparations and condition,i think fighters from last 20-30 years are relatively better prepared.the only thing that old school fighters are better in is stamina,and that's thanks too 15 rounds and their limited knowledge about human body,preparation,nutrition etc...and i mean relatively better prepared,for their capabilities which doesn't neceserraly means that some old school fighters aren't superior to some modern fighters.again,superior genetics doesn't mean their training was the best possible

 

They are still 147 at the weigh in. Many old timers added 7 pounds or more after the weigh in as well,it just wasnt offically recorded.
And really adding 15 pounds after the weigh in just shows either that you made weight dangerously or that HBO weighed you at the second time with 7 pounds of clothes on.

You really think a guy like diaz is better than jim watt because he may be heavier in the ring?

Finally,money may, early 160 hopkins and the current incarnation of pac at 147 do NOT add hardly any weight after the weigh in,yet compete with guys like clottey who was almost 160 against pac. Class counts,not HBO weigh ins...

 

Sarcasticism.

 

This doesn't have much to do with the thread but I thought I'd share.

http://www.oocities.com/colosseum/dugout/8973/comp/73final.html

 

Boxing is not better because its not as popular and frequent as it once was.
Modern training methods have improved. Fighters can take off 6-8-12 months and get right back into fighting shape in 2. I dont know if I would call that an improvement or a better understanding of genetics, fitness and metabolism.

 

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Because you have no argument.

I'd say Tunney was definitely more skilled. As far as the infighting goes I'm taking it from accounts of his biography which is a pretty solid read, and because he simply had to be. Infighting was a much more significant part of the fight game back then; even the outside guys were pretty damn skilled in the clinches and up close because of the rules.

As far as KO%(i'm taking #KOs/wins) gene is on top. I'm taking it from boxrec though, , and Tunney's is greater than Ali's. 72 for tunney, 66 for Ali? It IS boxrec though, and Tunney's record may not be properly represented like many fighters from his era though so you could be right.

It's not about how unique Tunney was, that's observable just by seeing him fight. Before him there had been nobody in the heavies with that level of outside game since Corbett, basically. I'd say he was a very special fighter, p4p top 15 for me

 

why would i need to argue that Muhammad Ali was a better boxer than Gene Tunney?

 

You don´t need to argue this - even so it isn´t as clear as you may think - because that was not the point. The point was that Tunney was more skilled than Ali, not better.

 

See, this is a demonstration of basic reading comprehension skills.

 

I disagree. From what I've seen of Tunney, I think Ali is much smoother in his movement pattern. Has especially much better upper body movement as well as sviwels from the ropes (Ali had perhaps the best check hook I've seen at HW - funny it isn't mentioned more). Ali's ability to punch off his movement is actually unreal. I also like Ali's combinations better.

Then we have things as anticipation, timing, judging of distance and ring generalship. Very few have Ali beat in these areas.

But as I said, there's so little avalaible footage of Tunney that I don't like definites here.

This is not really solid source material for me, but even so it could well be true.

But Gene retired close to his prime. If you take Ali's record when he's at the same age his KO percentage is marginally better (but more or less the same).

 

Ali was definitely an innovator in off the ropes fighting. One of his stronger points. However, doesn't boxing truism advocate not being anywhere near the ropes at all. As for combos, I think Tunney had some pretty great ones. Look at the one he puts carpentier down with. For an outside fighter he goes upstairs and downstairs in combination quite well, something Ali never did. That fight is actually a superb example of how good he is in the clinches and inside, it's choppy but watch how he handles Georges. In the Dempsey fights look at how he ties Jack up and neutralizes his threat at that distance(something Ali wasn't too bad at!). If you look at where Tunney hits you'll notice how accurate of a puncher he is too, the hooks and cross he hits Carpentier and Dempsey with are aimed at sweet spots; behind the ears, the tip of the jaw, the temple. When he hits right he gets impressive knockdowns, despite being a blown up LHW.

As far as Generalship goes I think even the limited footage we have speaks volumes about his strengths in this area, he controlled the fight at all three ranges very well and could inflict hurt at all three. He could fight aggressively or defensively. He could counterpunch, stick and move. Very ahead of his time. He had great success against a wide variety of styles.

So yeah, I do think he has a wider skillset than Ali. I'm not saying he does everything better than Ali, who I think has superior footwork in terms of mobility as well as better swaying/upperbody movement along with the ropes innovation you mentioned before.

 

Ok. Seems we're pretty close here.

Just as an aside, letting your opponent back you to the ropes and then counter with a check-hook is certainly textbook skill, but at a high level. You very rarely see HWs do it, but look at this gem (at 5:15): http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xrjzl_muhammad-ali-vs-karl-mildenberger-p_sport