The Top 100 Pound for Pound All-Time Greats

the_bigunit · Feb 17, 2013

I still don't see Ike Williams. Should be at least, fifth tier, no?

McGrain · Feb 17, 2013

Flea Man said: ↑

This really isn't too far from my top 50-60 anyway, I just have a few fighters in drastically different tiers but MOST are exactly the same brackets. Nice.

I don't have McAuliffe. Put Dick 'I Won the Title at Middle and Light Heavy and probably beat Benvenuti When I Had Cancer' Tiger in his place. ;-)
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I think McAuliffe is going to bite the big one, indeed.

McGrain · Feb 17, 2013

Tier I
Harry Greb, Bob Fitzsimmons, Sam Langford, Henry Armstrong, Sugar Ray Robinson, Ezzard Charles, Muhammad Ali, Benny Leonard.

Tier II
Joe Gans, Mickey Walker, Archie Moore, Roberto Duran, Packey McFarland, Joe Louis, Willie Pep, Joe Walcott.

Tier III
George Dixon, Charley Burley, Holman Williams, Sugar Ray Leonard, Barney Ross, Tony Canzoneri, Jimmy McLarnin, Sandy Saddler.

Tier IV
Gene Tunney, Ruben Olivares, Pernell Whitaker, Roy Jones, Terry McGovern, Billy Conn, Kid Gavilan, Stanley Ketchel, Eder Jofre.

Tier V
Manuel Ortiz, Alexis Arguello, Jimmy Wilde, Jose Napoles, Emile Griffith, Jack Britton, Carlos Monzon, Marvin Hagler, Jimmy Bivins.

Tier VI
Salvador Sanchez, Julio Cesar Chavez, Evander Holyfield, Floyd Mayweather, Manny Pacquiao, Thomas Hearns, Rocky Marciano, Fighting Harada

Tier VII (Holding)
Tommy Loughran, Ted Kid Lewis, Carlos Zarate, Mike Spinks, Jack Dempsey (np), Tommy Ryan, Carlos Ortiz, Luis Manuel Rodriguez, Bernard Hopkins, Dick Tiger.

the_bigunit · Feb 17, 2013

McGrain said: ↑

Tier I
Harry Greb, Bob Fitzsimmons, Sam Langford, Henry Armstrong, Sugar Ray Robinson, Ezzard Charles, Muhammad Ali, Benny Leonard.

Tier II
Joe Gans, Mickey Walker, Archie Moore, Roberto Duran, Packey McFarland, Joe Louis, Willie Pep, Joe Walcott.

Tier III
George Dixon, Charley Burley, Holman Williams, Sugar Ray Leonard, Barney Ross, Tony Canzoneri, Jimmy McLarnin, Sandy Saddler.

Tier IV
Gene Tunney, Ruben Olivares, Pernell Whitaker, Roy Jones, Terry McGovern, Billy Conn, Kid Gavilan, Stanley Ketchel, Eder Jofre.

Tier V
Manuel Ortiz, Alexis Arguello, Jimmy Wilde, Jose Napoles, Emile Griffith, Jack Britton, Carlos Monzon, Marvin Hagler, Jimmy Bivins.

Tier VI
Salvador Sanchez, Julio Cesar Chavez, Evander Holyfield, Floyd Mayweather, Manny Pacquiao, Thomas Hearns, Rocky Marciano, Fighting Harada

Tier VII (Holding)
Tommy Loughran, Ted Kid Lewis, Carlos Zarate, Mike Spinks, Jack Dempsey (np), Tommy Ryan, Carlos Ortiz, Luis Manuel Rodriguez, Bernard Hopkins, Dick Tiger.
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Ike Williams...

LittleRed · Feb 17, 2013

LittleRed said: ↑

Floyd is bestest Flea. Consistency. And unlike Lopez the man hoped up since weights, beat some baddies, and never lost. Bestest my man, bestest.

I just watched Silver Linings Playbook (for the second time). If that was in Pittsburgh about the Steelers, it would win the Oscar.

Loughran took a fight off conceivably the greatest fighter of all time, held his own with Tunney, and beat Mickey Walker, all three of whom make your top 50. He also won against guys like Mike McTigue, Jeff Smith, Johnny Wilson, Young Stribling, Jimmy Slattery, Leo Lomski, Pete Latzo, and Georges Carpentier. If that's not enough Loughran moved up and held his own at heavyweight and even beat two future heavyweight champions in James Braddock (albeit at 175) and Max Baer, split a pair with another champion in Sharkey and took the reigning champion to the distance giving up 84 pounds.
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Thank God no one has made a case for Loughran. I'm mean that's terrible how does.that compare to getting knocked out by Joe Louis. Seriously wtf separates Conn and Loughran by that many tiers. Conn was more dominant but Loughran beat more high quality guys. Old Tommy at least matches his heavyweight accomplishments. Hell Conn is probably better (Pittsburgh over Philadelphia first, last, and always) but the difference is a puddle not a river.

Flea Man · Feb 17, 2013

In McGrain's list Williams should be in tier 5.

For me he's with Gavilan, Arguello, Napoles in the 28-32 pack.

the_bigunit · Feb 17, 2013

Ike Williams is obviously my biggest gripe. Glad to see I'm not the only one.

If McAuliffe can get some airtime, I'd like to Kid McCoy. Even Charlie Mitchell was doing more true pound for pound damage pre-1897.

Manassa · Feb 17, 2013

Flea Man said: ↑

In McGrain's list Williams should be in tier 5.

For me he's with Gavilan, Arguello, Napoles in the 28-32 pack.
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Same. There's just no ****ing way Holman Williams is greater than Ike.

I really will have to work on my list. So far it goes:

1. Harry Greb
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Ray Robinson
4. Benny Leonard

5. Sam Langford
6. Ezzard Charles
7. Archie Moore
8. Willie Pep
9. Roberto Duran
10. Bob Fitzsimmons
11. Joe Gans
12. Mickey Walker
13. Barney Ross
14. Tony Canzoneri
15. Muhammad Ali
16. Packey McFarland
17. Joe Louis
18. Jimmy McLarnin
19. George Dixon
20. Ray Leonard

After that it's extremely difficult. I can justify the above, though, but I won't now, if nobody minds, because it takes too long. Not a lot separates each space really; Walker, for example, is not really any greater than Canzoneri, it's just preference.

lufcrazy · Feb 17, 2013

McGrain said: ↑

:shock:

What's your range for Holman Williams, Packey McFarland or Stanley Ketchell? Ish.
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McFarland is top 30. Williams and Ketchel are both similarly ranked for me in the top 60 area.

I think the onle negative regarding the fab 4 is that hearns got iced by Barkley so I could see him being ranked lower but he offset that by amazingly outboxing Virgil Hill for me.

lufcrazy · Feb 17, 2013

Boilermaker said: ↑

I disagree with your comments regarding the triangle theory.

In fact, i think the triangle theory (if that is the best word) is the best we have available to predict results.

WE all know the exceptions and no one has any real statistics. But, if Three fighters of roughly equal (or so it is thought) fight, and Fighter A beats fighter B and fighter B beats fighter C, then more often than not Fighter A will beat fighter c. Eg Wlad beats Wach. Wach beats Tye Fields. It is a fair bet that Wlad beats Tye Fields (though not a cerainty). It is only rare occassions that the famouse Foreman, Frazier, Ali triangle pops up. When you add an extra fighter into the triangle (probably making more of a pyramid) it would seem to lessen the number of upsets.

In fact, this is probably (i dare say) more reliable of an indicator than actually a proven fight between the two. Or at least it can be. For example, Brewster beat Wlad. Do we expect a repeat of the performance in the rematch? Most trilogies or at least half of them seem to have a fighter dropping at least one return match. I dare say the triangle theory is a far better indicator as a results indicator. Particularly when their are two or three common results to compare.

Of course, the worst indicator by far is the commonly held video footage theory. You simply cannot look at a fighter (without knowing their records) and judge how they will perform or what class of fighter they are with any certainty. In fact i challenge anyone to predict the results of any 10 unknown professional fighters by watching clips of fights against other unknown professionals and come up with much better than a 50-50 result (in fact you wont go much better than someone who just looks at the fighters and takes a guess based on size and fitness). Certainly you wont get anywhere near somebody who is allowed to look at their boxrec record and use their common opponents as a guide.

People dont like to hear it, but the triangle theory as you call it is easily the most reliable out their in my opinion. Of course, nothing is infallible, but it is pretty good.
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I couldn't disagree more tbh. Triangle theories are bull**** especially when it's a conjected triangle theory.

McGrain · Feb 17, 2013

Here is the resume of Holman Williams:

Bob Satterfield
Archie Moore
Bert Lytell
Cocoa Kid
Kid Tunero
Joe Carter
Lloyd Marshall
Jack Chase
Charley Burley
Eddie Booker
Gene Buffalo
Steve Belloise
Jose Basora
Jimmy Leto
Izzy Jannazzo

It's fuuuuuuuuuuuucking insane. It's among the very best of resumes. There is no way in shitsville either Williams or Hagler is way ahead of this guy.

As far as Williams goes, i was thinking 7 or 8?

TheSouthpaw · Feb 17, 2013

McGrain said: ↑

Here is the resume of Holman Williams:

Bob Satterfield
Archie Moore
Bert Lytell
Cocoa Kid
Kid Tunero
Joe Carter
Lloyd Marshall
Jack Chase
Charley Burley
Eddie Booker
Gene Buffalo
Steve Belloise
Jose Basora
Jimmy Leto
Izzy Jannazzo

It's fuuuuuuuuuuuucking insane. It's among the very best of resumes. There is no way in shitsville either Williams or Hagler is way ahead of this guy.

As far as Williams goes, i was thinking 7 or 8?
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Pretty impressive Resume!

Manassa · Feb 17, 2013

McGrain said: ↑

Here is the resume of Holman Williams:

Bob Satterfield
Archie Moore
Bert Lytell
Cocoa Kid
Kid Tunero
Joe Carter
Lloyd Marshall
Jack Chase
Charley Burley
Eddie Booker
Gene Buffalo
Steve Belloise
Jose Basora
Jimmy Leto
Izzy Jannazzo

It's fuuuuuuuuuuuucking insane. It's among the very best of resumes. There is no way in shitsville either Williams or Hagler is way ahead of this guy.

As far as Williams goes, i was thinking 7 or 8?
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Tier seven or eight? For Ike Williams when Holman is in three? Mate are you ****ing losing it?

Here's what I could find off my own back. All boxers rated at some point in the RING's annual top ten (Hall of Famers in bold):

Holman:

Battling Gizzy
Lew Massey
Tony Falco
Slugger White
Bobby Pacho
Saverio Turiello
Jack Portney
Steve Mamakos
Izzy Jannazzo
Joe Legon
Antonio Fernandez (x2)
Jimmy Leto
Jose Basora (x3)
Kid Tunero (x3)
Joe Carter (x2)
Eddie Booker
Steve Belloise
Jack Chase (x4)
Paul Lewis
Aaron Wade (x2)
Bert Lytell
George Henry
Bob Satterfield
Henry Hall

Charley Burley (x3)
Archie Moore
Cocoa Kid (x3)
Lloyd Marshall (x2)

Ike:

Lefty LaChance (x2)
Wes Mouzon
Slugger White
Johnny Bratton (x3)
Dave Castilloux
Sonny West
Ronnie James
Lester Felton
Willie Roache
Johnny Hutchinson
Lulu Constantino
Joe Miceli
Bobby Ruffin
Bill Speary
Buddy Garcia
Gene Burton (x2)
Ralph Zannelli (x2)
Jesse Flores
Joey Peralta
Willie Joyce
Freddie Dawson (x3)
Maxie Berger
Juan Zurita
Tony Pellone
Rudy Cruz (x2)
Nick Moran
Enrique Bolanos (x3)

Sammy Angott (x2)
Bob Montgomery
Kid Gavilan
Beau Jack (x3)

There is no ****ing way Ike is four or five tiers lower.

McGrain · Feb 17, 2013

Cocoa Kid made the hall of fame now.

Manassa · Feb 17, 2013

McGrain said: ↑

Cocoa Kid made the hall of fame now.
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Yes and I just amended it, so is Lloyd Marshall. It was a list did some time ago.

Is that all you have to say?

Move Ike somewhere sensible.

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