The Top 100 Pound for Pound All-Time Greats

I am strong on those four.

Angott has a very close win over Pep which is nice, but I'm not sure his record is consistent or strong enough that he has to make it. I'm fine if he doesn't. Benny Lynch doesn't need to either, really. I don't know a much at all about Kilbane and Philadelphia Jack O'Brien but I don't see what's deserving. Locche looks wonderful on film, obviously, but his record gets thin. Jung-Koo Chang too as well. His run is sort of impressively unimpressive.

It is really hard to split Willie Joyce and Jack Beau. Beau has Sammy Angott, Al Bummy Davis, Zivic X2, and a win over Willie Joyce. But Joyce has three wins over Ike Williams, and a win over Chalky Wright. Joyce went 2-2 with Armstrong. Beau beat Armstrong soundly once but never came close against Ike. Ike was arguably in his prime when he beat Beau but perhaps a little young and green when Joyce was winning those fights. Two guys sort of split between the LW and WW limit. It's real tough close. I think I'd give Beau the edge. I suspect he has better names within the bigger names. Guys like Janiro, Greco, and Montgomery.

The 4 I bolded I think are most deserving of a spot, though.

Perhaps Kid Chocolate could get a consideration. Chocalate has wins over Lew Feldman X4, LaBarba 2x, & Benny Bass. He has a SD loses against Canzoneri, and two against Jackie Kid Berg. One of those SD goes the way and in changes his legacy forever. He nearly fought even in three fights with those guys and only became challenged at the absolutely highest level against ATG opposition.

Perhaps Johnny Dundee could get a consideration. This is what Surf-Bat posted of his credentials in another thread.

Some of the highlights of the "Scotch Wop", Johnny Dundee:

2 wins over Benny Leonard
3 wins over Rocky Kansas
6 wins over George KO Chaney

wins over champs and top men like Willie Ritchie, Eugene Criqui, Jimmy Goodrich, Leach Cross, Johnny Ray, Benny Valgar, Mexican Joe Rivers (3 wins), Lou Bogash, Ever Hammer (twice), Charley White (3 times), Ritchie Mitchell (twice), Philadelphia Pal Moore (twice), Joe Shugrue (3 times), Willie Jackson (3 times), Joe Welling (3 times).

Not too shabby. Certainly just as compelling if not more compelling than Willie Joyce's record.

 

You have to elaborate on why Chang's record is 'impressively unimpressive' please.

You've seen Canzoneri-Chocolate I, right? How did you score it? Chocolate may well have deserved it. Both look great and it's one of my all-time favourite bits of film.

Look; I think Bass doesn't get mentioned enough, although I'm not an expert on him. But wow that is a quality list of names.

 

Ricardo Lopez but a slightly lesser extent. Honestly, I won't argue against him making it. I've only seen his fight against Montiel (Which one I can't remember) and that other midget with a weird name. I'm trying to not show a bias against the super little guys because it's hard to ****ing know past how they look against mostly unknown midgets. So yeah, I'm probably unqualified to pass judgement but it's super tough to evaluate the lower your go past bantam.

I don't think I have seen it. I may have awhile ago. It's a close fight and I have enough trouble scoring close fights in HD so I can't really argue against the decision passed the yellow grain.

Did you think Chocalate deserved the decision and do you think he merits a placement?

When I look at the last tier I seriously think Mandell should make it. As much as it pains me I think Locche lacks the record and there are more deserving fighters to make it. I don't really feel good about O'Brien getting in either. I'd have Mandell above him.

There were so many good fighters that this becomes the hardest part of the ranking. I'd exclude Locche & O'Brien and decide between Jack Beau, LaBarba, & Kid Chocolate. I'd probably go with the former of Kid Chocolate but that's a real tough decision as well. As for the old discussion, I'd have Beau over Joyce as well. I think Ike Williams was a less finished product when he was struggling with Angott, Joyce, & Montgomery. The versions that were conclusively beating Beau were better. Actually add Johnny Dundee for consideration, too.

I love Foreman. I'm a Foreman fan as must know here, and I can see him on a greatest fighters list for sure. His achievements are so uniquely spectacular it's hard to omit him. Without said I'd have Tyson at 100 over Foreman because Tyson is a superior fighter IMO. I also think the Buster Douglas that beat Tyson was far superior than Jimmy Young.

Now on to watch Chang, any specific fights that I should look at first to refresh my memory?

 

Actually it was Chang-Lopez that I saw on McGrain's channel. Not the other Spanish sounding name midget I listed.

 

This content is protected

You are so blatantly out of your element here. Flea is about to slap the ever-loving **** out of you for dissin' little Asian fighters.

 

These are my two favorite posts. Ever.

 

I know I am. Have mercy Flea.

 

They are up there for me too. I was contemplating having the first paragraph as my signature.

 

Tyson? based on what in comparison to the other possible entries. He has 2 wins over ATG guys, and a short yet explosive reign as champion. Also lost to the best guys he fought (yes he was past it but Holmes was well worn by the time they fought as well)

Tyson over Jack, Joyce, Angott, etc. just can't be. :bart

 

Its sig worthy. I took my from an undercaffeinated Sal Sanchez fan.

 

H2H potential, mainly. His dominance, and skills/abilities at his peak form.

I'm not sure I'd have Tyson over Jack. The rest, yeah.

 

H2H and peak ability would be one messy top 100 list that's for sure. I tend to rate accomplishments vs top opponents higher than "how good fighter A looks"

 

I can't even see sigs. Have I been missing out on something good all this time?

Peak ability is just an evaluation of how good a fighter is/was. His skills. Accomplishments and record are highly prioritized but to certain point it can just be a benchmark for how great a fighter is. For example, you advocated SRL earlier to a high placement. I don't remember how high, maybe a top 10 placement. But in terms of proven credentials, Mickey Walker cemented himself a greater legacy. That's why people squawked at SRL above Walker, but if you factor in ability, skills, H2H (Whatever you want to call it), SRL has that quality in spades. In that sense, it's completely fine for him to be above Walker.

Same goes for Jones Jr being thirty spots ahead of Hopkins. Louis being #10 because McGrain feels he was the best puncher ever. These are the sort of unique caveats to an already subjective process. They're perfectly fine, too, but that's why these lists can sometimes feel inconsistent or off. Often it's opinion, and other times it's people with different ideas & mindsets about what sets certain fighters apart from one another. And that can sometimes feel like a shift-shaping of the criteria. It's not, though.

In that sense, I am sort of surprised McGrain didn't include Liston. He's been really objective in the process so far, except for when he got weak with Willie Joyce yesterday.

That's my reasoning/argument for Tyson, though.

Anyway, I probably feel more strongly on Sammy Mandell getting in.

Can someone explain how Jack O'Brien got in? I know he has wins over Young Peter Jackson and Choyonski. Apparently he beat an old Fitzsimmons and I know he drew with Jack Johnson.

Mandell has a win of Canzoneri and McLarnin. That's the #19 and #23. He's also got a win over Johnny Dundee, Jack Bernstein, Rocky Kansas, and Sid Terris. The problem with Mandell was that he basically done by 26 but that's not surprising and kind of expected when you start when your 15/16.

How is O'Brien ahead of Mandell, though.

As for Locche, I love him and his Cervantes win is great. His wins against Hernandez and Pruit are also good. His Fuji performance is spectacular. It may be the only time I argue against an ethnically Italian blood fighter from making it. Maybe he's got enough on his record and enough on film to prove his inclusion. I just wonder if he's more deserving than Johnny Dundee, Fidel LaBarba, or Kid Chocolate. It's tough that someone fighters are split on the edge of that 100. It's not really criminal or a big deal if there 101 or 104 but for some reason when a list cuts off or ends it means something to be in the top 100.

 

Pete, I know not everyone spends most of their times watching and researching midgets from the 80s (and before) but if you can, watch Chang Vs Zapata, German Torres (either first or third fight) Tokashiki and Chitalada; all former or future champions and bloody good at what they did.

You've seen the Lopez fight? Okay; the Panamanian didn't dealt seem up for it but he was coming off losing his title and Chang was an 18 year old novice. Chang steamrolled him.

That is why Chang is so bloody good.

 

Alright, I'll try. I should seriously research and watch more footage, but lately I've gotten to the point where I just watch the current stuff it seems.

I think I'll watch Chang-Zapata first, and then watch more of Zapata, too. Curiously, how close are Chang and Zapata in ranking? They would seem kind of hard to split, though I guess Chang was more consistent and a bit better.

Then a refresher on Zarate, Addie seems to be giving him some high praise.

*Edit*

I reminded myself back in 2010 to watch Chang from a list of Addie's recommendations. I must've stopped when I realized they were smaller than jockeys.