The Top 100 Pound for Pound All-Time Greats

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by McGrain, Feb 15, 2013.


  1. turbotime

    turbotime Hall Of Famer Full Member

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    :lol:

    don't ever let a bit of Floyd Joy get in the way of friendship
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  2. Mr Butt

    Mr Butt Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    With all the drug cheat stuff going on around holt/Peterson for the sake of argument say Holyfield admitted drug cheating how many people here would still want him on this top 100 list
     
  3. the_bigunit

    the_bigunit Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Ross went 4-1 against the two of them. Yes, that places him in another class.
     
  4. xRedx

    xRedx Boxing Addict Full Member

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    In general, it's impossible for an all time pound for pound list to be accurate. There are too many factors and fights involved. There's also the bias of the rankers.
     
  5. Garrus

    Garrus Big Boss 1935-2014 Full Member

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    I don't see any heavy bias from McGrain.
     
  6. dinovelvet

    dinovelvet Antifanboi Full Member

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  7. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Been gone a while gents, with apologies here's the next lot...
     
  8. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    #50 Jack Dillon (95-8-15, Newspaper Decisions 92-19-17)

    Five-feet-eight-inches and overweight at 175 pounds. Jack Dillon became contender to the title of one of the biggest heavyweight champions in history, the 245-pound man mountain called Jess Willard. Willard never met Dillon, but in the three years between his defeat of Frank Moran and his devastating loss to Dempsey, the smaller Jack was named as a possible opponent as often as anyone else, such was the resume he built at heavyweight. This, though, was but the greatest achievement of the first man to be given the moniker “Giantkiller.” He also amassed a tremendous win ledger at both middleweight and light-heavyweight.

    When he lost back-to-back fights (and his generally unrecognized title claim) to Frank Klaus in December of 1912, Dillon had already boxed a career. Going into those fights he was 31-2-5, and he had beaten some of the leading middleweights of his era, George Chip, Leo Houch, Eddie McGoorty, Battling Levinsky, Mike Sullivan, Jimmy Gardner and Bob Moha. The incredible thing is that all of this was in Dillon’s pre-prime. His run after the twin losses to Klaus is what made him.

    He came hot out of the blocks beating two top contenders of the Ketchel era, Jack Sullivan and Hugo Kelly. Both were faded but both were at one time amongst the very best middleweights in the world—Dillon outclassed both. A six-rounder newspaper decision against Leo Houch (whom he had already beaten several times) aside, Dillon won more than seventy fights in a row against almost as massed an array of talent as the era could provide him below heavyweight. He also began his insidious creep up the heavyweight ranks, besting heavyweight contenders and gatekeepers in Jim Flynn whom he spotted fifteen pounds, Gunboat Smith who outweighed him by twelve pounds, and Dan Flynn to whom he gave up eighteen pounds. He then dropped a strange one to the unheralded Tom McMahon before digging into the heavyweights in earnest, beating up Jim Savage, Charley Weinhert, Dan Flynn twice and Jim Flynn once. Billy Miske proved a step too far in January of 1916 but stopped the giant Tom Cowler in his very next fight, by knockout no less. He continued to brutalize the Flynns, Smith and perennial victim Battling Levinsky before he avenged himself in April of ’16 upon Billy Miske whom he outboxed over ten.

    It was said by some that Dillon’s manager had become a little too brave when he matched him with the 205-pound Frank Moran, a fighter who had just boxed ten rounds with the incumbent heavyweight champion, but such was Dillon’s reputation by this point that he was made a favorite over the world-title challenger.

    “Jack Dillon proved his right to the title of Giantkiller last night,” wrote The New York Tribune, “by handing Frank Moran a thorough lacing at Washington Park [Brooklyn].” An astonishing 25,000 people watched the massacre.

    After this feat, Dillon dropped off a bit, as witnessed by the fact that Battling Levinsky now at last managed to best him. Others would take advantage, but during his mind numbing six-year prime, he amassed an astonishing 92-3-7-2 against the best the middleweight, light-heavyweight and heavyweight had to offer.
     
  9. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    #49 Tommy Ryan (84-2-11, Newspaper Decisions, 5-1-1)

    Tommy Ryan’s decade of dominance began in 1891 when he lifted the welterweight title of the world beating Danny Needham over—wait for it—seventy-six rounds. These excessive distances suited Ryan as he was persistently in tremendous condition and boxed intelligently to break his opponent down. Needham was taken apart at the seams, eyes closed one-by-one before a body attack sapped his strength. “Pure science” is how the LA Herald reported it; here then was the successor to Jack Dempsey, The Nonpareil, only Ryan would have the competition to prove his greatness.

    Proving he could punch in addition to box, he dispatched Billy McMillan and “cat-quick” Englishman Frank Howson in three and fourteen rounds respectively to round out ’91. Three more defenses followed through ’94 including a twenty-round victory over one of the era’s outstanding fighters and perhaps the dirtiest of all time, Mysterious Billy Smith. Smith was the aggressor throughout, but Ryan kept him under control with a body attack that would have “felled an elephant” according to The St. Paul Daily Globe. Ryan defied the one-hundred degree heat to rally and dominate the final five rounds of twenty, forcing Smith to his knees several times. The two were rematched in ’95 and the fight was ruled a draw upon the interference of the police, but in reality Ryan had beaten Smith to a standstill, the wire report stating that he had split Smith’s ear whereupon Smith turned to the ropes whilst Ryan hammered him.

    Ryan failed to lift the middleweight title upon his first attempt losing out to Kid McCoy but he would add it two years later in 1898, beating Jack Boner in twenty rounds, beating the outstanding Tommy West in fourteen rounds, drawing a rematch with McCoy (once more due to police interference) and once again defeating Billy Smith in the interim. He fought six official defenses of his middleweight title, including one of the bloodiest contests ever staged in his 1902 rematch with West and retired the undefeated champion of the world. Nor did he ever lose his welterweight title in the ring; in fact he lost just twice, once by knockout to the bigger McCoy and once by disqualification. Whilst his dominance is hurt by his failure to match Barbados Joe Walcott, the other colossus of this era, Ryan’s being arguably the best welterweight or middleweight for as many as ten years provides a huge counterbalance.


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  10. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

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    Decade of dominance :)
     
  11. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    #48 Manny Pacquiao (54-5-2)*
    #47 Floyd Mayweather (43-0)*


    In the introduction to Part Three I wrote that “should conservatism in boxing become the norm, much of the oxygen that allows greatness to burn is sucked from the room.” Is it reasonable to level at these two men, who hold eighteen different straps including seven lineal championships at a total of thirteen different divisions between them, accusations of conservatism in matchmaking? No. I cannot say that. Fans whinge endlessly about Floyd Mayweather “cherry picking” his opponents whilst the other camp gnashes their teeth about Manny Pacquiao “weight-draining” his opponents in a series of catchweight bouts, but these men have both fought some of the very best fighters of their era.

    But they haven’t fought each other.

    I am not interested in the reasons why. Was Pacquiao’s ducking blood tests the reason or did Mayweather’s determination to duck Pacquiao just render that a handy excuse? We will never know for sure and I don’t care. My job is to analyze the legacy of the two men and rank them in relation to others. Their failure to meet is of interest, however, because if they had fought a pair it would have changed the rankings of both men more than any other series imaginable. Say Pacquiao had beaten Mayweather twice—he then becomes the unfettered #1 for this era with a domination of a fellow and primed all-time great under his belt and is thereby catapulted up this list whilst Mayweather drops to the lower reaches. As it stands, they are ranked almost together, as they were through much of the past decade, with Mayweather slightly higher, just as he was for much of that time. Both were ranked on the pound-for-pound list between 2003 and 2013, with Mayweather ranked higher for most of six of these years and Pacquiao ranking higher for most of four, despite Mayweather’s yearlong “retirement.”

    If that seems an arbitrary way to judge them, it needn’t. It is obviously desperately close between them and they themselves had the chance to separate one from the other in terms of skill and legacy but declined—the fans are the big losers and for boxing it is the most embarrassing low blow since the abolishment of the color line. Mayweather’s slight advantage in longevity on the P4P list plus a sneaking suspicion on my part that he was better by a hair is, tragically, all I have to separate them.

    There was enough oxygen in beating a series of top men and one another’s leftovers but not enough to see them fulfill that dramatic potential, and with that fight now rendered all but meaningless by Pacquiao’s destruction at the hands of Juan Manuel Marquez, only extreme longevity or a surprising leap to middleweight on the part of Floyd Mayweather will see these two modern giants trouble the top twenty in the way their fans would wish.


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  12. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    #46 Ike Williams (128-24-5)

    Ike Williams sits atop a pile of lightweight as deep as any since the heyday of Joe Gans. Pinning down his absolute prime is difficult—such was Ike’s level of competition that there would always be a loss just around the corner—but he probably hit his absolute stride sometime in 1944. This was the year in which, putting his defeat by the superb Bob Montgomery in January behind him, he twice beat the equally brilliant Sammy Angott (Angott would avenge himself by stoppage in ’45) adding scalps like Slugger White, Freddie Dawson, Enrique Bolanos and Johnny Bratton through ’46 before Gene Burton picked him off in ’47. Tippy Larkin then fell in four before he unified the title having already picked up the NBA title in ’45, all but murdering Bob Montgomery in the process. The lightweight then stepped up to do what few welterweights could do, knocked down and outpointed Kid Gavilan in a ten-round fight in February of ’48. The decision was not a popular one in every quarter, but this rather misses the point; Gavilan, whilst not primed, was on his way to becoming one of the most formidable welterweights in history. Stepping up to beat him should have been all but impossible. Dropping him in the process is a real feather in Ike’s cap.

    Defenses against the outstanding Beau Jack and Jesse Flores followed before Kid Gavilan twice avenged himself giving him a total of seven defenses against as superb an array of contenders as challenged a lightweight champion. Zurita, Montgomery, Angott and Jack were fellow kings who at some stage knelt before him. On the downside, Williams dropped a four-fight series to the stiff-jabbing fleet-footed Willie Joyce who bested him during his apparent prime, revealing a surprising stylistic weakness that undermines his standing a little, and the fifties were deeply unkind to him, stealing both his title and a his air of invincibility as he boxed on beyond his prime. An excellent puncher and a superb boxer, he’s a handful for any fighter you care to name weighing in at or below 140 pounds and was the definitive lightweight from an era that would have given up more names to this list were it 120 place long rather than 100.


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  13. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    #45 Jimmy Bivins (86-25-1)

    Jimmy Bivins fought a level of competition only a handful of men on this list can equal and even fewer outmatch. After just fourteen fights he was pitted against Pittsburgh welterweight Charley Burley, then approaching his red hot prime, and although he held a size advantage, it is in no way a fight Bivins should have been winning—and yet, he did, landing the heavier blows and nicking a unanimous decision despite Burley’s taking over down the stretch. The door had opened on one of the most astonishing runs in boxing history.

    Jimmy’s unbeaten streak was ended by former European middleweight champion Anton Christoforidis whilst he was still just 19-0, but Anton was a fighter Bivins had beaten before, and would again. In March of ’41 he beat the great Teddy Yarosz, and a month later outpointed heavyweight veteran Billy Knox. Still a light-heavyweight, Lem Franklin and Tony Musto, both in excess of 200 pounds proved too much for him, but he overcame the murderous punching Curtis Sheppard in ten. After losing to Melio Bettina he beat former middleweight champion Billy Soose and former (and future) light-heavyweight champion Gus Lesnevich back-to-back before being matched against leading heavyweight contender Bob Pastor. Pastor had around ten pounds on Jimmy, who was a huge underdog, but the Clevelander nearly put him away in both the first and the second before succumbing to Pastor’s sustained body attack and dropping another decision. That was April of 1942 and Bivins would not lose again until February of 1946. In that time frame he beat:

    Oakland Billy Smith who was two months away from knocking out Lloyd Marshall, and a few months away from a draw with Archie Moore; light-heavyweight title challenger Melio Bettina to take a 2-1 lead in their series; 200-pound heavyweight contender Lee Q. Murray, twice outpointed over ten; Archie Moore, whom he knocked down six times before knocking him out in six; Lloyd Marshall who was coming off a career’s best win over Ezzard Charles, stopped in thirteen; heavyweight contenders Tami Mauriello and Pat Valentino; his former conqueror, Anton Christoforidis whom he defeated over ten to lift the “duration” light-heavyweight title, a series of belts introduced for the duration of World War Two; Ezzard Charles himself, who he beat like a thief, dropping him so many times in the course of winning a ten-round decision that the newspapers cannot agree upon how many counts there were; Joey Maxim, future light-heavyweight champion of the world; Bob Pastor, whom he avenged himself against by nearly stopping on course to a ten-round decision; and the much heavier Lee Savold, beaten in one-sided fashion.

    It’s a staggering run of form carving him out as the premier light-heavyweight of the war years and likely amongst the two or three premier heavyweights. Given what he did to this huge swathe of champions and contenders in his prime years it is astonishing that he never held a genuine title himself.

    So why no higher?

    His incredible run of form was brought to a halt by Jersey Joe Walcott who beat him in a controversial points decision in February of 1946. From this, Bivins appears to have never recovered. He lost to Lee Q. Murray a few weeks later, a fighter he had never had issues dominating in spite of his seven-inch height and fifteen-pound weight disadvantage, but Murray now beat him clean. He’d drop his third straight to a peaking Ezzard Charles and this was the pattern that was repeated through the second part of his career. Charles knocked him out in four rounds twelve weeks later, then Murray beat him again; then Moore stopped him in nine, then he took him for a decision; Charles and Maxim both outpointed him; Moore knocked him out in eight and then nine; Harold Johnson decisioned him; as he slipped, so did lesser talents.

    That said, you cannot take away from Bivins the extraordinary things he did and even whilst the best were beating him, he was adding to his resume, taking scalps like Valentino and Turkey Thompson. A brilliant fighter capable of the dull and sublime, wonderful wins and inexplicable losses, he unquestionably can be named amongst the greatest of the 1940s.


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  14. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    #44 Thomas Hearns (61-5-1)

    Of the many brutalizing punchers that litter this list, few have Tommy’s laser-guided accuracy, and even fewer enjoyed his height and reach advantage at his first championship weight of 147 pounds. He knocked out thirty of his first thirty-two opponents and like so many punching kings, included in this run was an excellent and dominant champion, in this case Pipino Cuevas. More unusual; until Hearns came along, Cuevas was regarded as the great welterweight puncher of the era, knocking out eleven of twelve title opponents—Hearns brushed him aside in two of the most devastating rounds seen.

    The unbeaten Luis Primera and Randy Shields followed before Hearns embarked on one of the great nights of his career, of any career, the showdown with fellow welterweight demigod Ray Leonard, the winner to be anointed divine. Hearns was favored but was taken apart late after outboxing the man that would for many remain the best welterweight boxer of all time. In spite of the loss, this fight is also regarded by some as literal proof that Hearns could not be outboxed at the weight, and needed to be outfought. That this would prove a horrifying task was demonstrated when Hearns stepped up to what I consider his best weight, light-middle. A win over Wilfred Benitez helped to define his stint in this weight division although it was the knockout perpetrated against Roberto Duran that would forever define him. Like Cuevas before him, Duran was swept away on a terrifying tide of offense in just two rounds.

    Middleweight is where the Hearns story likely should have ended; losses to Marvin Hagler and Iran Barkley make 160-pound tenure a near failure despite the strap, but Hearns, like all the great ones, rose again, draping 174 pounds over his 6’1” frame and stepping up to add a strap at light-heavyweight versus Dennis Andries and another versus Virgil Hill. Hearns brought remnants of both his speed and power to this class, evidenced by his dropping the tough Andries on six occasions, and although he looked vulnerable in spite his bulging biceps and even pedestrian in short spells against Hill, he declared 175 pounds “the weight division for me!” He did look the part, and allowing that he added the super-middleweight title, making him the first fighter in history to win straps at five different weights, Hearns is overqualified for pound-for-pound greatness, his keynote wins guaranteeing his place ahead of Floyd Mayweather.


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  15. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    #43 Tommy Loughran (89-25-10)

    Jack Sharkey was slipping when Tommy Loughran got to him in a razor-thin split decision in 1933. The result typified Loughran’s time at heavyweight. Starting to slip a little himself when moved up to the big division in earnest, he was capable of outboxing the mercurial Sharkey or dropping a decision to a less brilliant contender, like Walter Neusel. The giant Primo Carnera was too big for him, bringing to the ring a weight advantage close to 100 pounds, but Loughran was able to trouble Arturo Godoy, the man who came so close to upsetting a prime Joe Louis, going 1-1-1 with him. In addition to Sharkey and Godoy, he beat top contenders Steve Hamas, King Levinksy, Paulino Uzcudun, Earnie Schaaf, Jack Renault and Max Baer, many of whom fought for the heavyweight title—or held it. A stirring resume is undermined by an inconsistency at the weight but this never was Loughran’s best division. At light-heavyweight he was one of the greatest of all time.

    Loughran fought an eight-round draw with Gene Tunney and began his dramatic series with Harry Greb whilst he was still a teenager. After going 1-1 with Jeff Smith and Mike McTigue in no-decisions for the light-heavyweight title no less, Loughran began to gain weight and take scalps. In 1923 he received a close and perhaps questionable decision over the great Harry Greb. Greb hadn’t lost a fight outside of a dubious decision loss to Gene Tunney since 1920. He was twenty-one years old. Greb took his revenge (as Greb was wont to do) a couple of months later but from 1926 through to 1929 he went unbeaten. In that time he would lift the light-heavyweight championship of the world and beat such men as champion Mike McTigue, the wonderful Jimmy Slattery, Leo Lomski, Pete Latzo, Mickey Walker and Georges Carpentier before vacating as the undefeated champion of the world.


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