The Top 100 Pound for Pound All-Time Greats

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by McGrain, Feb 15, 2013.



  1. Doppleganger

    Doppleganger Southside Slugger Full Member

    1,622
    39
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Dec 30, 2005
    I have a problem with this. It's not useful to lump together the entire lineage of a sport then determine the best of all time, other than for ****s or giggles. This ignores the evolution (or devolution in some cases) of a sport over time. As sports grow and develop they change, rules are refined, standards are generally improved, goalposts are changed. If the sport becomes more popular then the overal level of competition increases, which in itself usually raises the bar.

    For example, there's just no way to say with any real conviction that Bob Fitzsimmons or Sam Langford are 'likely the two biggest punchers ever.' It's just an opinion and I could counter by saying that Jackson or Hearns are bigger punchers P4P. Who is right? They fought in different eras with different rulesets and mentalities. I think it's better to say that all 4 are among the hardest punchers P4P of all time. It's like in football - can you really say who was better between Pele, Maradona or Messi? I can't and I would argue that no-one really can. it's all just opinions at the end of the day.
     
  2. Rumsfeld

    Rumsfeld Moderator Staff Member

    52,810
    4,403
    Sportsbook:
    11,889
    Jul 19, 2004
    Was just perusing through McGrain's top 100 heavyweights, broken down into 10 chapters. Good stuff McGrain.

    :smoking:
     
    McGrain likes this.
  3. Mrcomber

    Mrcomber New Member Full Member

    4
    0
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Jan 4, 2019
     
  4. Mrcomber

    Mrcomber New Member Full Member

    4
    0
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Jan 4, 2019
    For me today's heavyweights would be to big and dangerous for the likes of Marxian and co, but what do I know just a thought
     
  5. KuRuPT

    KuRuPT Boxing Junkie Full Member

    8,109
    2,076
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Aug 26, 2011
    I love reading this thread from time to time and go over how it got to this point. In recently doing so again, I was just curious on the discussions and reasoning behind Hagler and Monzon being listed where they are, for example, say above Holyfield? I thought p4p implied, no matter the size, this man could get the job done. All the fighters in the top ten, and many more throughout the listed, showed those very qualities. Hagler and Monzon, basically fought in the same division their entire career, and never moved up in weight to see if this p4p theory is true. What's more, if there were fighters who moved down in weight to challenge them, we'd at least have that, even though it was still fought at their same weight. Instead, we see nothing like that with either, but instead, it was fighters moving up not down, and were generally smaller than Hagler and Monzon. So I was just curious what the extrapolation was here that got us to having them ranked higher than some who actually did meet guys across various weights, and often times being the smaller guy?
     
    PhillyPhan69 likes this.
  6. PhillyPhan69

    PhillyPhan69 Boxing Junkie Full Member

    12,139
    5,337
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Dec 20, 2006
    Good question and hopefully some more chime in although you might want to start a separate/new thread as I don’t know how many revisit this one frequently.

    For me the resume is contrasted and while other factors weigh in the favor of success or sustained success in multiple weight divisions, I balance it against that same criteria of longevity accomplishment ranked opposition for those who didn’t or were not built to navigate multiple weight divisions. Hagler Monzon Hopkins spring to mind as do HW’s in general. I try and contrast the opposition and sustained level of greatness but that does not exclude those who had sustained greatness in one or very few divisions. I do think doing that in multiple divisions gives added points and is why many of the top tier guys did in fact achieve greatness in multiple classes or divisions. Which is probably why the Haglers/Monzons for example come on in the 20s ? Even though their duration and defenses are on par or exceeds others it also lacks the multiple weight level enhancements of others. But good question that I hope others who do ratings will comment on
     
    KuRuPT likes this.
  7. Webbiano

    Webbiano Boxing Junkie Full Member

    7,661
    587
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Nov 6, 2011
    I thought the idea of p4p was that you don't equate for their weight or size, you rank purely on their skills and attributes. Obviously resume and achievements would come into play, but more of a way to compare fighters from different weight divisions in more of a H2H manner.
     
    kandamrgam likes this.
  8. Jack Catterall

    Jack Catterall New Member Full Member

    66
    27
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Nov 28, 2018
    Foreman deserves to be higher than 100. Lewis deserves to be higher than 94. Sweat pea is too high for me and the same with Rocky. Gene Tunney is a bit low as well. But it’s just my opinion
     
  9. Flea Man

    Flea Man มวยสากล Full Member

    82,218
    776
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Sep 7, 2008
    And your opinion means absolutely nothing
     
  10. Drew101

    Drew101 Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    26,855
    4,296
    Sportsbook:
    3,722
    Feb 11, 2005
    Eh...It means as much as anyone else's on this topic not named McGrain.
     
  11. Flea Man

    Flea Man มวยสากล Full Member

    82,218
    776
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Sep 7, 2008
    No it doesn’t as he’s given no reasoning for it.
     
  12. RulesMakeItInteresting

    RulesMakeItInteresting Active Member Full Member

    1,054
    722
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Mar 23, 2019
    Ewps, I thought this was heavyweights. Not sure where to put this, so forgive me for beng such a noob.

    1) Muhammad Ali (Unbeatable in the 60s, was only beaten by great fighters in the early to mid 70s. No one could touch Ali in his first run as champion, and I personally believe he would have beaten every other on this list during that time.).
    2) Joe Louis (do I really need to explain?)
    3) Larry Holmes (Greatest heavyweight jab ever, and nearly as great a ring general as Ali...despite the cries of lack of competition he was unbeatable post-Norton to 1985)
    4) George Foreman (just take in his entire career. Wasn't much of a boxer, but such a devastatingly heavy puncher with the added gift of being a truly terrifying finisher. Unbelievably enduring, resilient in the 90s. He had an outrageously great and heavy (but woefully underused) left jab. ..had he employed it a long with more head and foot movement he might have overtaken Holmes on this list)
    5) Jack Johnson (An all arounder, like Louis. Possibly the most tragic casualty in boxing due to the politics of the time)
    6) Jack Dempsey (Even moreso than Tyson and Frazier, the most id-fueled swarmer in heavyweight history. Very much like an unstoppable force of nature at his best, regardless of being so light for a heavyweight)
    7) Joe Frazier (Greatest left hook and, when he beat Ali, probably better than Foreman and Dempsey ever were. He's ranked down because, like Tyson, he really didn't last that long at his peak.)
    8) Rocky Marciano (I'm a bit grudging putting him over Liston and Holyfield due to the rawther, uh...elderly nature of his competition. Hard to fight that record, though)
    9) Sonny Liston (faster than Foreman and heavier-fisted than Tyson and Frazier. Again, his peak just didn't last that long imo)
    10) Evander Holyfield (fantastic heart, terrific and unorthodox style...at his peak Evander was a terrific sight to see imo. Had the health issues not existed he would have more resoundingly beat Holmes and Foreman...and probably never lost to Lewis and Moorer).
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2019
    PhillyPhan69 likes this.
  13. PhillyPhan69

    PhillyPhan69 Boxing Junkie Full Member

    12,139
    5,337
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Dec 20, 2006
    Just start a thread or add your list to the Top 10 HW thread on page 1 as of today

    No Lewis or Tyson might need explaining (possible I just don’t see it) Dempsey Liston to high. But like all of our lists it’s an opinion and worth discussing
     
  14. RulesMakeItInteresting

    RulesMakeItInteresting Active Member Full Member

    1,054
    722
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Mar 23, 2019
    Tyson was the most savage fighter I've ever seen... But no heart. The time he could have proved himself as having a great heart would have been the 2nd Holy field or against Lewis. He failed miserably. How can a fighter be great without a champion's heart. And let's be real... He was a rapist. That's not a great champion in my book. Maybe I'm wrong. I don't think so. Foreman would have knocked him silly, back in the day Ali Holmes and Louis would have stopped him... I think even he's admitted that. As far as Lewis goes I put him after Holy field because for most of his career he was almost solely the right hand. It wasn't until much later he got his jab together along with some fine moves...and then he was great. But my opinion is worth zero anyway, I'm just glad to hang here with other boxing fans. They're all great fighters of course!
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2019
    PhillyPhan69 likes this.
  15. RulesMakeItInteresting

    RulesMakeItInteresting Active Member Full Member

    1,054
    722
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Mar 23, 2019
    . Doesn't that apply to everyone?