The Top 100 Pound for Pound All-Time Greats

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by McGrain, Feb 15, 2013.


  1. Johnny_B

    Johnny_B Well-Known Member Full Member

    1,696
    940
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Feb 8, 2020
    Good post. Pacquiao is definitely top 10.
    This list was made by a clueless poster who favors old timers that wouldn't even last 1 round against the top dogs of the past 2-3 decades
     
  2. Johnny_B

    Johnny_B Well-Known Member Full Member

    1,696
    940
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Feb 8, 2020
    George Dixon, Terry McGovern, Packey McFarland, Jimmy McLarnin, Holman Williams, Billy Conn, Alexis Arguello, Tommy Loughran, Ike Williams, Tommy Ryan, Jack Dillon, Carlos Ortiz, Fighting Harada, Ruben Olivares, Young Corbett III, Ted Kid Lewis, Freddie Welsh, Freddie Steele, Lou Ambers, Salvador Sanchez, Wilfredo Gomez, Vicente Saldivar, Abe Attell, Manuel Ortiz, Harold Johnson, **** Tiger, Luis Manuel Rodriguez, Carlos Zarate, Miguel Canto, Azumah Nelson, Mike McCallum, Bob Foster, Teddy Yarosz, Panama Al Brown, Pascual Perez, Lloyd Marshall, Young Griffo, Pete Herman, Jack "Kid" Berg, Philadelphia Jack O'Brien, Jung Koo Chang.

    Tyson pisses all over these bums, yet they are on the list and he isn't ?!?!
    The best HW in history (prime vs prime) is not among the top 100 boxers that ever lived ?!?
    GTFOH with this garbage list. :ggg

    When compiling such a list, one must take into account 3 major factors:
    1. one's prime / peak form and ability
    2. achievements (titles, records, resume, etc)
    3. impact on the sport

    Here's what the top 10 should look like:
    1. Sugar Ray Robinson
    2. Harry Grebb
    3. Sam Langford
    4. Henry Armstrong
    5. Manny Paquiao
    6. Floyd Mayweather Jr
    7. Joe Louis
    8. Roberto Duran
    9. Sugar Ray Leonard
    10. Muhammad Ali


    And if we make a based just on their primes:
    1. Sugar Ray Robinson
    2. Roy Jones Junior
    3. Mike Tyson
    4. Manny Paquiao
    5. Floyd Mayweather Jr.
    6. Roberto Duran
    7. Marvin Hagler
    8. Sugar Ray Leonard
    9. Henry Armstrong
    10. Joe Louis






     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2020
  3. George Crowcroft

    George Crowcroft 'Snarky Little Gobshite' - IntentionalButt Full Member

    18,549
    24,635
    Sportsbook:
    500
    Mar 3, 2019
    You shouldn't. You should factor in 1 of these things, and it's the 2nd one... Hence why Tyson didn't make the cut. He didn't on most respected lists either.
    I take it this is a list of fighters you don't know anything, or near that, about. These are some of the best fighters in history, don't be ignorant, educate yourself.
    Every single one there is greater than Tyson, with the possible exception of Foster. Calling guys like Alexis Arguello and Luis Rodriguez bums is the height of ignorance and shoes blatant lack of knowledge.
    Ali is there... Lewis is too, Holmes as well actually.
    Go on then son, where's yours? Let's see it if you're such an expert.
     
    greynotsoold and roughdiamond like this.
  4. George Crowcroft

    George Crowcroft 'Snarky Little Gobshite' - IntentionalButt Full Member

    18,549
    24,635
    Sportsbook:
    500
    Mar 3, 2019
  5. PernellSweetPea

    PernellSweetPea Boxing Junkie Full Member

    10,622
    4,239
    Sportsbook:
    132
    Feb 26, 2009
    These lists are so subjective. It would be interesting to have everyone make thier list and then put it in some datebase which average the names out and puts them where they would average out.
     
  6. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    35,918
    12,714
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Apr 27, 2005
    Why would you unpin this gem.
     
    Gudetama and George Crowcroft like this.
  7. Johnny_B

    Johnny_B Well-Known Member Full Member

    1,696
    940
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Feb 8, 2020
    You factor in all 3. "Impact on the sport" is the reason Ali usually makes the top of lists like these. That is part of greatness as well.
    Otherwise he's nowhere near the top 10 p4p.
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2020
  8. Johnny_B

    Johnny_B Well-Known Member Full Member

    1,696
    940
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Feb 8, 2020
    I might have exaggerated by calling some of them bums, but the fact remains that neither is greater than Tyson. His impact on the sport alone guarantees him a spot on this list.

    I already posted my top 10, didn't you watch it ?!
     
  9. George Crowcroft

    George Crowcroft 'Snarky Little Gobshite' - IntentionalButt Full Member

    18,549
    24,635
    Sportsbook:
    500
    Mar 3, 2019
    No, it's not. Ali's there for his insane longevity and unbelievable résumé, as well as being the actual #1 HW. Not H2H, Greatness. Which is what this is about.
    Both Rodriguez and Arguello are literally miles greater than Tyson. In fact, there probably around 100 places greater, let alone Tyson being in the Top 100...
    Impact on the sport is #1 subjective, and #2 irrelevant.

    Nah, I missed it. You got a link? I can give you my top 100.
     
  10. Johnny_B

    Johnny_B Well-Known Member Full Member

    1,696
    940
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Feb 8, 2020
    IMPACT ON THE SPORT is a huge factor in assessing greatness.
    If we disregard that, then Ali is nowhere near the top 10 p4p.
    The likes of Sugar Ray Robinson, Harry Grebb, Sam Langford, Henry Armstrong, Willie Pepp, Roberto Duran, Sugar Ray Leonard, Floyd Mayweather Jr, Manny Pacquiao,Joe Louis - all have had better careers than him. Yet none has influenced the sport as much as he did.

    No they are not. Tyson trumps them by a country mile. The whole globe knows who Tyson is, but only experts and boxing people know about the other 2.

    Foreman had way better longevity.
    And prime vs prime, the likes of Tyson, Holmes, Bowe, Holyfield, Lewis, and the Klistchko brothers - they all whoop Ali's arse.
     
  11. George Crowcroft

    George Crowcroft 'Snarky Little Gobshite' - IntentionalButt Full Member

    18,549
    24,635
    Sportsbook:
    500
    Mar 3, 2019
    There's so much wrong with this post I can't even be arsed.

    Look up Muhammad Ali. Study. Actually learn about him. Then you'll know why he's here.

    Not only experts know who Alexis Arguello is. Just because you don't doesn't mean everyone else is ignorant.
     
  12. Johnny_B

    Johnny_B Well-Known Member Full Member

    1,696
    940
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Feb 8, 2020
    I know all there is to know about Ali.
    Ali was undeniably great, but with the passage of time, he has become much more myth than man. His legend is far greater than the reality of his career. He was getting rocked by 185 lb fighters like Henry Cooper in the 60's. All the big heavyweights he beat were mostly flat-footed sluggers with no head movement.
    When breaking down Ali's career, there were a lot of things that worked to his favor in order to (a) make a lot of money for a lot of people and (b) revive boxing from it's dormancy in the 1960s. Fixed fights with Liston, a win over an injured and much smaller Patterson, gift decisions versus Norton, Young, Shavers, and Chuvalo II, opponents who were often much smaller, all contributed greatly to his success.
    Yes, he was a fast HW with great reflexes and a good chin. But there were a lot of factors that led to his success and the media's love affair with Ali which helped seal his legacy.
    I repeat, if we also take into account his impact on the sport, he's undeniably the GOAT. But if we just assess his boxing skills, he's nowhere near the top 10 p4p.

    I know who he is, but that's only due to the fact that I watch a lot of boxing.
    The regular Joe on the street doesn't and that says it all.
     
  13. Man_Machine

    Man_Machine Boxing Addict Full Member

    5,351
    3,659
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Jun 9, 2010
    How do you quantify factors 1 and 3 and what interrelationship, if any, does each have with factor 2?
     
  14. Johnny_B

    Johnny_B Well-Known Member Full Member

    1,696
    940
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Feb 8, 2020
    I agree that factor 1 is quite hard to determine and somewhat subjective, but we can all agree that someone like Lewis was a far better boxer and was way more skilled than someone like Wilder.
    Factor 3 is easier to assess. You analize a boxer's influence (did the sport grow cause of him, did he bring in more money and put more bums on seats and/or in front of a TV screen, did other boxers try to emulate him, how well known he is, etc)

    As for the connection between factors, there isn't necessarily one, nor should there be. You just make a pointing system for each one (let's say a scale of 1 to 10) and add up the points.
    Let me assess a few ATG's as an example:

    Muhammad ALI
    1. Peak form: 8 Some might believe he is the best HW, but IMO he has too many flaws as a boxer to ever be labelled as such
    2. Achievements: 8,5 Had an impressive career, but he also had some losses. Plus he benefited from: a fixed fight with Liston, a win over an injured and much smaller Patterson, gift decisions versus Norton, Young, Shavers, and Chuvalo II (opponents who were often much smaller), the fact that all the big heavyweights he beat were mostly flat-footed sluggers with no head movement.
    Great resume, but he wouldn't have had as much success in the 90's.
    3. Impact on the sport: 10 Nobody can argue with that
    TOTAL: 26,5 points

    Mike TYSON
    1. Peak form: 10 IMO there has never been a better HW
    2. Achievements: 6 Tyson never fulfilled his potential, but he still did better than a lot of other HW champions. He unified the division, made 9 titles defenses, and regained his belt after prison.
    3. Impact on the sport: 10 He's the most recognized boxer out there, along with Ali.
    TOTAL: 26 points

    Lennox LEWIS
    1. Peak form: 9 Great all round boxer, had it all.
    2. Achievements: 9 Beat everyone who was put in front of him, although some of his opponents were passed their prime
    3. Impact on the sport: 5 He was never the biggest crowd-pleaser / draw, and that detracts from his greatness slightly.
    TOTAL: 23 points

    Riddick BOWE
    1. Peak form: 9 Again, great all round boxer, had it all.
    2. Achievements: 5 Poor work ethic and bad management limited his achievements
    3. Impact on the sport: 4 Again, bad management stained his image. Many see him as a coward for ducking Lewis, when in fact the fight never took place due to money issues.
    TOTAL: 18 points

    SRR
    1. Peak form: 10 Probably the best boxer p4p there has ever been.
    2. Achievements: 10 From 1943 to 1951 Robinson went on a 91-fight unbeaten streek. By the time he first retired, in 1952, he had a record of 131–3–2. And out of those 2 losses, one was against a guy he beat on 4 other occasions and 1 was against a LHW, who he had a point advantage on and only lost due to heat exhaustion. Nobody tops that.
    3. Impact on the sport: 7,5. As strange as this may seem, although SRR was a tremendous boxer, many casuals don't know him. He was indeed great, but his impact on the sport and recognisability is not quite up there with that of Ali and Tyson.
    TOTAL: 27,5 points

    Henry ARMSTRONG
    1. Peak form: 9
    2. Achievements: 10 He held the belt in 3 divisions: featherweight, lightweight and welterweight. He had a brilliant career.
    This content is protected

    3. Impact on the sport: 6. Many boxers respected and admired him. However, apart from boxing enthusiasts, few casuals know him. And it's not just due to the era he was in. He was just not as popular as say, someone like Dempsey.
    TOTAL: 25 points

    Roy Jones Junior
    1. Peak form: 9,5 He was out of this world in his prime. The only thing one might say wrong is that he did not possess the best jaw, but nobody managed to land on him, so it's not that big of a deal.
    2. Achievements: 7 Had he retired after he beat Ruiz, this would have been a 9. As it stands, he damaged his career by carrying on longer than necessary. He still dominated the 90's though.
    3. Impact on the sport: 8.
    TOTAL: 24,5

    These are just a few examples and some might argue with the numbers, but I don't have a problem with that. This is just my opinion
     
  15. Man_Machine

    Man_Machine Boxing Addict Full Member

    5,351
    3,659
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Jun 9, 2010
    Fair enough, if you have your own system. However, I would view a boxing hermit, who had next to no public presence, other than what I saw in the ring, but who'd accumulated a resume like that of Greb or Robinson, as being greater than a major celebrity boxer with their own 24/7 online feed and some good wins.