The Transnational Boxing Rankings

Sorry if this is another dumb question but:

What if a fighter cleans out a division? Say he beats all the top 5 fighters in his division. Will he be the lineal champion then?

 

That's no dumb question, it's a critical one. There are two answers, both assuming that there is a vacant throne in the division.

The first answer is that a fighter ranked #1 or #2 who is stomping through a division like Godzilla, but avoids fighting the next best cannot be crowned. That wouldn't mean that he isn't the premiere fighter in the division, but it would mean that he is not the true champion, the division king (Again, bleep the bleeping belts). There must be rules of succession; and that is something boxing as gotten away from because of greed at the top and social-media's obsession with opinion -it's like a never-ending debate out there and guys take their own singular opinion as something weightier than it is. Nay-Sayer provides an immediate example of that in the past several pages of this thread.

An example of a premier fighter/non-champion is Mayweather. Although intelligent minds disagree about whether he should have been champion after beating Mosley, the fact is that he has avoided the next best, who was usually Pacquiao since he came out of retirement in 2009. He's the best WW, probably, but he isn't the champion as far as we're concerned because he failed to fight the next best. If he signs to fight the winner of Pacquiao-Bradley II, the chances are pretty good that the winner will be ranked second in the division, then the winner of that one will the welterweight king.

To be sure, Floyd is the Jr. MW king. Why? He fought the next best in the division. Canelo was the biggest risk he took in damn-near thirteen years if you ask me, and it was worth it. Floyd got himself a crown for it.

Another example is Jones. Jones may well have been the flashiest cherry-picker in history, but history will frown on him once boxing gets its collective head dislodged from its collective rump. Jones never fought the true champion or the next best at MW, SMW, or LHW. He was the premiere fighter in all three divisions which is big, but he ended up being a belt-collector without a throne, which is a damn shame.

The second and probably more fitting answer to your specific question is this: if a fighter beats the top five in the division, he will likely get ranked at 1 or 2 as soon as he whips #1 or #2, then he need only whip his next best rival to take a vacant throne.

 

good to know!! now they should have bouts to prove the world who is THE BEST!
--- Contact me for Best Boxing belt deals ---
Gym Ast. Manager Detroit, MI. Loves WBC belts. Sells Collectibles for most of my living.

 

Hey all,
my thanks to McGrain and associates for starting this, a sound and comendable enterprise.
1 question though (and this is NOT a veiled dig at TBRB or Ward), I see A.Ward is #2 P4P still.
If Froch were to beat Groves and Chavez Jnr whilst Ward defends against a lower top 10 opponent @ SMW, would Ward still retain his P4P status above Froch? Even though many would consider Froch (should the two hypothetical victories happen) to be top in the SMW division?
How long is one allowed to "live off" former accomplishments before they are dropped in your rankings?
I know you allow for weight changes and injuries to an extent but it grates on me slightly that such an inactive fighter as Ward is hailed so highly P4P still.
How long could he remain inactive for and still be in your P4P list? 2 more years? Seems a bit much......

Thanks again for making the effort and your general input to the forum.

 

First a disclaimer --P4P List shouldn't be taken too seriously. They are an inexact science and often worse. There are different approaches to them which prejudice the results in no small way. Some will approach them as H2H hypotheticals (which I think is crazy); others will look at recent resume and still others consider overall resume (which really should pertain only to to ATG P4P Lists, lest Hopkins be our #1!)

We tend to look a recent resume, though "recent" is relative term. Some members tend to look at ring generalship though, which explains why Mayweather is #1. When we were fighting this out, Ward was very close to Floyd for the #1 slot --I was in that camp.

Ward cleaned out a division and has proven to be a dominant king. That defeat of the legit Light Heavyweight king was no small matter either. As for Froch -Froch looked less than he was against Groves but had help from a friend in a striped shirt. That's hardly an argument to see him rise in the rankings. And let's be honest -Froch isn't beating Ward unless Ward gets pneumonia mid-fight.

We have to consider that Ward has no one left in the division to fight. A lesser champion without the tourney that launched Ward would be boasting about being undefeated without half the contenders on Ward's resume. And if the media's chronic and often ****-eyed celebration of Mayweather is any hint, we'd all be saying "Amen."

We don't have a hard & fast rule about when a P4P guy drops down, but you can count on guys overtaking him eventually, despite the above excuses. Just because we don't automatically drop a guy after 8 months of inactivity doesn't mean his place is reserved.

 

OK fair enough, seems like p4p is not subject to the same mathematical scrutiny as the other rankings, that's cool, I would NEVER suggest I have either the drive nor capability to do these rankings anyway, just wanted to throw some questions out there in the spirit of fair play. Thanks for the quick response 'Stone Hands'.

A couple of points to consider perhaps (in bold) in the interest of fairness.

1) Ward never beat the "legit LHW king", otherwise he would have got legit LHW status, something he hasn't achieved. Dawson was a super-middle weight contender the night they fought.

2) Not sure Froch could never beat Ward, he wasn't close to getting stopped in my view and holds a good finishing instinct. He's by no means a favourite hypothetically, but a no-hoper he is not. Point being, styles-make-fights and just because you beat someone else vying for p4p shouldn't mean you can 'piggy-back' on their success against other fighters and sensibly remain above them IMO.

3) Ward has beaten good fighters yes, I agree, so have plenty of other boxers not on your p4p list though.....

4) Eventually could be a long time, 8 months of inactivity true, I'm not suggesting any change in the rankings per se, but aside from the inactivity, Ward has fought a contender in Dawson (since no unification was happening) and Rodriguez.
Bit unfair to say that beating George Groves is worth no rise in the rankings when Groves arguably would beat a 168 Dawson and Rodriguez also.

Anyway, cheers for the response, I'm really nit-picking and as you say p4p is a bit of a laugh really so please don't think I'm having a dig.

Thanks again:good

 

Those are good welter rankings.

 

Nah, the Transnational Rankings Board members are neither clannish nor snobbish, despite the rantings of at least one Molotov-bearing critic. At heart we're informed fans who appreciate the input of other informed fans to better the quality of the product. So, thank you.

I think Ward was crazy not to face Dawson for the LHW crown; but he did beat the legit LHW king, albeit at a catch-weight. The point stands, no?

Froch has neither the style, flexibility, or skill to take Ward. It's a classic styles-make-fights problem for Froch. I think Froch knows this very well. Ward is just too much for him.

You're a fan of Froch and that's great, but it seems to me that his peak is over and he's sliding. I'd bet on Groves in the rematch.

 

Transnational Ranking are done by asking members who are encouraged to apply criteria on who is the best one and the reason behind how the boxer is high, strong and advanced in his recent oppositions. How strong his career is in boxing and how long he is sturdy in his ring relationship. How he is using his tricks and tactics to accept all-corner from fighters.

 

Cheers, StoneHands and I didn't realise Ward-Dawson was actually at a catch-weight. I think you're right about him (Ward) missing a trick not getting the LHW belts but, seeing Dawson affected by the weight drop, perhaps that was a master-stroke....

I'm no massive fan of Froch at all though I very much enjoy watching his fights, I just enjoy boxing.

I totally agree that Ward 'has Froch's number' to a degree but let's not cloud the issue. These two fighters are but an example of how the p4p rankings can be unfairly skewed IMO. Whether you match up favourably with someone else in the top ten shouldn't mean that you can 'piggy-back' your way up the rankings as a result.

Ward should be doing more to earn such glorified status as he is enjoying is my point, that's all. The sooner he either shows us post-surgery he is the same standard as before, or, slips down the rankings to his deserved place, the better.

 

Ward-Dawson was fought at SMW -my mistake.

You bring up something that we and I suppose every other ranking organization that is on the level has to consider. The H2H vs. recent record dilemma. Personally, I think that H2H matters more to what we are doing and less to ATG P4P Lists, you know? For example, Charley Burley beat hell out of Archie Moore but anyone who thinks that Burley is greater than Moore needs to be sent to the basement with a cookie.

The scenario you bring up is interesting (Froch beating Groves handily and then Chavez while Ward fights Glass Joe or Canvas Back).

PS/ I like your "piggy-backing" term and may use it sometime if that's okay!

 

There is also an argument that the lineal title vacancy could've been filled when Pacquiao fought Mosley.

Here is why. When Pacquiao and Mosley fought, Mayweather had been inactive for over a year and had no fight scheduled at that time. Not sure if it applies to TBR but in the Ring that see's you removed from the ratings.

The Ring ratings at the time of Pacquiao-Mosley fight was:

1. Pacquiao
2. Victor Ortiz
3. Mosley
4. Andre Berto

The Ring actually considered making it for the belt too being that at the time Ortiz only had 1 fight at Welterweight over the largely unproven Berto. Mosley in the prior 2 years had a big win over Margarito and a one sided loss to Mayweather. However the panel narrowly voted against it citing Mosley's last win at the weight was too long ago.

However if they had, the lineal champion would've now been Pacquiao being he won the title back he lost to Timbo.

:deal

 

But that would have been arbitrary -and that's already a pretty compelling case against The Ring's authority with anything that has to do with lineal championships, no?

The Transnatl' Rankings was set up to address that (now institutionalized) problem that The Ring has. #1 must fight #2 for a vacant throne. Any lesser-ranked contender is not part of that discussion because that makes no sense.

This nonsense we keep hearing about "unifying belts" is worse than that. The boxing media continuously acknowledges what are often political appointees of corrupted organizations as world champions. It's idiocy. Too many of them dope slap the WBA with one hand while propping up the WBA's so-called champions with the other. And when confronted about it, they say "well, that's because boxing fans acknowledge the belts." Boxing fans "acknowledge the belts" because the media spoon-feeds this odd and insulated reality to the whole world.

Ultimately, it's the media that is at fault for boxing's having devolved into a chaotic world of make-pretend champions. It isn't the WBS organizations (they're getting theirs because they are allowed to) and it isn't the fans.

 

Wow, thanks again StoneHands, much appreciated and, I'm sure, not just by me. So refreshing to hear/read an objective and self-assessing view on such matters.
Not that it really matters as such, I've no beef with TBRB at all regardless of who 'they' see fit for the magical P4P title.
As you can probably tell, I'm a little more lenient to Froch than Ward but I swear the points I was making are valid irrespective of those two personalities/styles. For me, Ward is a super-gymnastic, rough-housing, stink-'em-up pugilist and I'm NO fan of his style certainly. I would never deny him his dues though, just that, all things considered, #2 p4p i.e. 2nd best boxer on the whole globe should go to a more....umm.....better stylist, not just a 'winner'. (Not that Froch is any kind of beauty either!)

Meh......just 1 man's opinion.....and for the record, I think Froch defeating Groves again and then going on to a mega-fight in Las Vegas against Chavez (or even GGG...?) and then winning that is a shade on the pipe-dream side but the hypothetical-scenario it provides against Ward Vs Canvas Back Joe is worth considering, if for nothing else, just to show that TBRB's rankings really are renegade compared to the rest.

Thanks again, keep up the good work, stick an' moooove!