The WBA Elimination Tournament

As mcvey put it, Liston was excluded because of the Ali fights and his unsavory reputation, therefore the powers that be wanted him nowhere near the title. In other words, if he were in the tourney there was a chance he might come out the winner. In spite of his credentials he was an unwanted champion after he took the title from Patterson and would probably be even moreso had he won the tournament.

 

Liston would have been a favorite in that tournament. Would have liked to have seen him batter Quarry. Probably would have stopped Patterson a 3rd time (I think Patterson would have been much tougher in a 3rd fight though). Ellis would have put up a decent fight for a few rounds but eventually he gets stopped.

All roads lead to to an eventual fight with Frazier between. I'll take Frazier. Frazier was a bad mofo during this time. He had improved since the struggle with Bonavena and beat him more clearly in their rematch, he had gotten his revenge vs. Mathis, he had dominated Ellis, he battered Quarry, and in 1971 he was damn near perfect vs. Ali.

 

Machen? A past prime Eddie Machen clearly outboxed a 17-0-3 Jerry Quarry in July of 1966.

I love how Quarry keeps getting better in retrospect. In a few years he's going to be on those "best fighter who never won a world title" lists. He was a tough guy, a fan favorite, a guy you'd love to hang out with, and he was white (that was important to a lot of people). He was on TV shows and he was one of the most famous boxers of his era... that doesn't mean he was one of the best.

Anyway, he had decent skills. He was good at making non-great fighters look bad... because of his overall boxing ability. When he fought great fighters, he usually looked bad, real bad. He was stopped by Frazier x2, Ali x2, and Norton. He never had a snowball's chance in hell in any of these fights. He beat a pre-peaked Ron Lyle by decision and stopped Ernie Shavers (quicker than most thought he would). I think Jimmy Young would have outboxed him. A case can be made that he should have lost twice to a past prime Patterson. Maybe the fight vs. Chuvalo was stopped too early but he was definately hurt. I wonder how he would have done vs. Bugner, Bonavena, or Lyle in a rematch.

As for Foreman avoiding him? Foreman would have fvcking killed Jerry Quarry! I don't think Foreman wanted to end Quarry's career. The only time the fight would have made sense was after Foreman lost to Ali. At this point Quarry had been slaughtered by Frazier twice, Ali twice, and was about to get similar treatment from Norton. So, between his 2nd loss to Frazier and his loss to Norton??? Wow! Quarry would have really gotten hurt. Prior to 1973? I guess he could have fought him, but why? Foreman was on the fast track to a world title shot.

Was he good? Absolutely! Was he great? Absolutely not!

 

But where was the outcry from Listons legions of fans that he was not included? Sonny could only be included once he made the ratings, that took him until 1968 once the tournament was just about over. Sonny then lost to an eliminated participant of the series. How was he going to win it? Martin was the first man out.

 

As I said Liston was in the WBA's top 20 .and so were 3 of the guys he stopped in Sweden,my magazines are in storage at the moment ,[decorating] or I would ferret them out.
The powers that be in US boxing did not want Sonny back in prominence and so left him in limbo.He went to Sweden because he could not get bout in the US.

What a handful of fans think about Scott Harrison has no bearing on this issue.

 

Question....viewing this from afar as it was before my time.it seems counter productive to have been involved as Frazier let these guys batter one another then fought the winner and was recognized as champ.Seems to me it was a tournament for the 'best of the rest' with the winner then steping up to fight Joe ??

 

What Frazier intially did was fight the unranked Buster Mathis for the NY state version of the heavyweight title. Then ,on winning it he defended against Manuel Ramos whose only win of note was over a washed up Ernie Terrell.

He then defended against Bonavena who had been eliminated from the WBA tournament a year earlier by Jimmy Ellis who floored him twice in taking an easy decision from him.
Frazier next defended against Dave Zyglewicz, unranked ,and unskilled.

Then Frazier fought Jerry Quarry who had lost in the final of the WBA tournament to Ellis a year earlier.

Far from Frazier waiting to fight the best of the rest ,he defended his spurious title against challengers that Ellis had already beaten , hyped fighters such as Ramos or nobodies such as Ziggy.
Meanwhile Eliis had beaten Leotis Martin,Bonavena, Quarry, and Patterson.

When he faced off with Frazier many thought he would beat Joe.

 

Agreed, I think I was one of them, Ellis was seen as kinda Ali-lite.

 

I think i remember Ellis had Ali's team around him ? Dundee Pacheco etc...im sure i remember some old footage of Pacheco saying he bet heavily on Ellis to beat Frazier.

 

I think you are being hard on Frazier here. Actually what happened was that Frazier vs Chuvalo had already went ahead even though the WBA initially wanted to include Frazier in their 8 man tournament. Frazier v chuvalo established him as the premier contender since he had already beat machen, bonnavena and jones. The WBA then dropped Joe in the ratings to #9 and it was then that New York insisted that the winner of the tournament must fight Frazier to gain their and other states recognition as champion.

When you consider the curent form of the initial 8. Frazier, Ellis, Terrell, Spencer, quarry, Patterson, bonnavena, mildenburger. Frazier had the best resume. He already beat bonavena!

Incidentally with Frazier out of the tournament that left a 7 man group and it was then and only then that Leotis Martin was included as a sub. The European union wanted Edwardo corletti included because if his win over Johnny Prescott, somebody also wanted Manual Ramos too but the WBA went with unknown Martin instead.

The truth of the mater was that Frazier wound up having a clean sweep against the best of that era. Ellis, Quarry, Bonnavena, chuvalo and of course Muhammad Ali himself. Frazier was the best heavyweight in the world. He proved it.

 

Interesting that when Ali fought Ellis in July of 71 Dundee was in Jimmy's corner. He trained both but he also managed Ellis.

 

Frazier did not become the number one contender till the end of 67.He wasn't established as such by beating Chuvalo
I'm not being hard on him, I'm just stating the facts and how they unfolded.
Frazier was never at any time in the tournament.

Chuvalo had already lost to Corletti,Patterson,Bonavena,Terrell, Folley,and Ali, before being beaten by Frazier,if he was rated it was very low.
The EBU wanted Corletti included because of his top ten win over Chuvalo. Not because of his win over Prescott, who was never rated.

 

The WBA had Frazier installed at #1. They dropped him to #9 because Joe refused to be part of the elimination group because he already was #1.

Chuvalo was on a 11 fight win streak since his MD loss to bonavena that Athur Mercante scored a Draw. Was bonavena any better than Chuvalo?

This is how Nat Fleischer and Sam Andre explained the events in "pictorial history of boxing"

"Nothing caused so great a muddle as Ali's draft case. The WBA had taken the title from him, and now had to find a replacement. Three months later it sanctioned the organisation of an 8 man elimination tourney headed by Mike Malitz Sports Action Inc, a New York based firm, to determine who would take over ALi's title "vacated" title.

"The intent was somewhat thwarted when officials of new York's Madison square garden arranged a bout between George Chuvalo and Joe Frazier fir July 19, 1967. Frazier knocked out chuvalo in the 4th round, then refused to join the elimination group. The group consisted if Frazier, thad spencer, Ernie Terrell, Oscar bonavena, Karl mildenburger, Jimmy Ellis, Floyd Patterson and Jerry Quarry.

In retaliation, the WBA dropped Frazier from number one to number nine in its ratings TO ALLOW LEOTIS MARTIN TO GET INTO THE NUMBER EIGHT SPOT AS FRAZIERS SUBSTITUTE."

The Mexicans also wanted Ramos included because of his stoppage of Ernie Terrell. From the same Fleischer book:

"Now Britain and Mexico entered the picture. Mexico's governing st tried but failed to get Manuel Ramos placed in the WBA listings. Ramos had stopped Terrell on October 14. Likewise the British couldn't get Eduardo Corletti, Victor over Johnny Prescott on October 17, into the tourney".

I think Corletti and Ramos better deserved inclusion than Leotis Martin.

 

I have the book.

The WBA invited Frazier ,his manager declined therefore he was never in it.

Why would the British want Corletti in the tournament?:huh

Whatever his credentials at that time Martin would have beaten both Ramos and Corletti.