the what fights did you watch today\scorecard thread.

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Mantequilla, Nov 20, 2009.


  1. GPater11093

    GPater11093 Barry Full Member

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    How does he do in that? Is it close?
     
  2. El Bujia

    El Bujia Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I thought Muhammad looked like straight garbage against Spinks. Like he was sleep-walking. Terrible effort, in my opinion.

    As for Marcel, I don't really see the complaint about Arguello's pace. He came on strong down the stretch as he always did. I don't think he was too far away from his prime even then. He always fought in pretty much the same manner if you ask me.
     
  3. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Not especially from what I remember. Weird ending though.
     
  4. natonic

    natonic Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Muhammad wasn't in great shape clearly against Spinks. He stayed in the fight for about 8 or 9 rounds at which point Spinks took over. He got layed out pretty good in the 12th and showed some heart in lasting the last 3 1/2 rounds against an ATG Light Heavyweight (and a brutal puncher to boot).
    Not quite sure what your point is about Marcel - Arguello other than I notice your tendency to take a contrarian view about just about everything. Watch Arguello against Leonel Hernandez. Arguello was still green against Marcel.
     
  5. natonic

    natonic Boxing Addict Full Member

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    p.s. Mustafa Muhammad at least put it on the line and took his ass whipping down the stretch. I was actually more impressed with that than Qawi, who pretty much decided he didn't want much to do with Spinks power midway through the fight.
     
  6. El Bujia

    El Bujia Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I was referring to GPater's post. I don't feel I take a contrarian view. I just don't follow this forum's general consensus views if I don't feel they're correct. People on here seem to just agree with everything written by the more respected guys.
     
  7. natonic

    natonic Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Cool. I think you might be selling the majority of the posters short. I've found even some of the trolls have a decent amount of knowledge, they just can't put it to good use.
    This is more of an informational thread. I check it out to get a heads up on fights I may not have seen yet. I generally try to be fairly brief with my statements. I could've put some more forethought into my statement to pack it with disclaimers, make myself seem more knowledgable and guard against the attack of my thesis, but I generally don't want to put that much time into it.
    To be clear, I rate Spinks very highly All-time at Light Heavyweight. Mustafa was not in the best of shape admittedly. But he had his "out" in the 12th round when Spinks laid him out. Having just watched the fight, I was impressed that he got up. I was impressed that he then lasted the distance against a brutal puncher in Spinks. That impressed me. Apparently you're not as easily impressed. And by comparison, I feel that Qawi, who is probably more known for his grit and toughness, kind of made that gentleman's agreement with himself midway through the fight with Spinks that he wasn't going to risk getting sparked out. So by comparison, I was impressed with Mustafa's effort in the fight, not so much his preparation.
    As for Marcel - Arguello, which you clarified you were replying to GP, I also think very highly of Marcel. I do think Arguello was just a little green against Marcel. I believe the Arguello of say '76 or '77 would've found a way to get Marcel out of there. People use the Marcel fight (and maybe moreso Vilomar Fernandez) as an ironclad style and blueprint to beating Arguello. I don't think it's that straightforward. I prefer to give Marcel his due as a great fighter while holding the theory that Arguello was not quite prime.
     
  8. GPater11093

    GPater11093 Barry Full Member

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    I thought he just kep a high pace throughout, rather than upping it late, although as Marcel slowed down he was able to land more.

    I think the Marcel fight disproves abit, that Arguello struggled with slick fighters. A very slightly pre-prime Arguello did very good against a slick, and brilliant Featherweight.
     
  9. sweet_scientist

    sweet_scientist Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    My scorecards for Arguello-Marcel and Shibata Marcel are fairly similar to yours G. The margins are about the same too.

    You should get a hold of Marcel-Gomez if you can. He absolutely pastes a very good fighter there (even though Gomez does look a bit faded from the fighter we saw scorch Saijo).

    The judge who had that scored a draw is up there in contention with Jo Jo Guera, Newton Campos and Eugenia Williams for putting up the worst card of all time.
     
  10. GPater11093

    GPater11093 Barry Full Member

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    Something is wrong here, me and you agreeing on a fight!

    I have got Marcel and Gomez and watched it, really good fight, shows his whole skillset there, one of the best Featherweight performances I have seen.

    I think I gave Gomez 1 round in that fight.
     
  11. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Rafael Herrera SD12 Chucho Castillo

    This is a great wee scrap. The first clinch between the two is in the twelfth round, and although it takes a couple of rounds to boil up, when it reaches melting point we really have a cracking fight on our hands. It's rare to see such a wonderful fight between two guys who respect each other so much, and by round 10 they've pretty much feinted and punched each other into knots, but duke it out anyway with the fight perhaps in the balance.

    Castillo dominates the first two rounds with his left hand. It's a lovely weapon, and for a while he boxes with it on a par with Kenny Buchanan or somebody like that, tossing in a beautiful short hook, not a full-blooded punch but neither is it a jab, and that's the shot he uses to dominate the first - switching to the jab in round 2. Herrera succeeds in taking this punch away from him though, with his own jab and a slight advantage in handspeed - his punches also look slightly shorter and crisper generally, nipping in often before Castillo can execute his own punch. There's absolutely no pawing though, it's a thudding weapon, and i'm surprised Castillo wasn't more busted up by this punch at the end of the fight, it watched like Chucho should have been more heavily marked up. As well as using his own jab to throw of Castillo, Herrera lands with frightening economy in the third, and Castillo looks a little unsure. For a spell of maybe 90 seconds, Herrera lands everything he throws and he has his opponents guessing. Generally the more economical man throughout, round three (also one of the fight's crucial inflection points) is in some ways his pinnacle.

    Herrera adds dimensions in the fourth, winning it with aggression and short bodypunches, but he also shows a lovely radar, slipping back and adding excellent upper body and head movement to take the sting out of most of Castillo's good work. There's a real ebb and flow to this fight, and this is a round where Herrera excels at making his opponent miss, generally landing his own best shots.

    His domination continues into the sixth, and Castillo looks worn out at the end of this one, but he is fighting back at the bell and again at the beginning of the seventh. By now, Herrera has nicked his jab from him, and he also gave a clinic on ditching the right, putting shoulder and glove between that punch as well as slipping and sliding to reduce impact and make his man miss altogether often. It's a clinic in regards defending the the right hand.

    Castillo has problems then, and starts to try to bring Herrera on in the 8th. I love this sort of thing, these little shifts that have a seismic affect on the fight. Castillo is having more luck, but his shift gives free reign to Herrera's aggression. It leads to a really weird situation where Herrera looks less sure and lands less, but Castillo, hit up and a little tired just doesn't throw enough punches to take the rounds. If he was busier in these rounds he could have won the fight, I think. Castillo digs in again though, in nine, and starts landing his left hooks once more, often as the counter-puncher, to win his first round since the second. Castillo then goes back into the pocket, which I think might have been because he felt he was losing the fight, but that perhaps Herrera was starting to feel the pace (which is high from round 3 on, especially in the fourth).

    The eleventh is a hard round and a hard round to score. I thought Castillo perhaps just, just out-fought his rival, though I could see this one appearing any one of three ways on a card. Chucho had the round in the bag for me, but looked disorganised and got tagged in the last minute, arguably evening things up. Castillo has generally had to work harder throughout to land his stuff, thrusting himself forwards or feinting and dipping to get his punches home. Herrera on the other hand has success with every punch in the book, man of them the harder shots, and when he does get into trouble, he goes back to his jab, which I think is his best shot. Both men show real art in their boxing.

    I couldn't seperate them in the twelfth making my card 6-5-1 to Herrera. Offical cards were 6-5-1 and 7-4-1 to Herrera, both reasonable, and 6-5-1 Castillo, which felt like a reach to me. I admired Castillo's adaptability and bravery perhaps even more than Herrera's domination, but it felt like a Herrera victory. He landed the more hurtful stuff, and seemed to boss the fight, except when Castillo decided to fight what would become his opponents fight, whoever won the individual rounds. Also, Castillo never, ever won a round big, whereas Herrera cleanly won a handful.

    But a great, great bantamweight scrap between two really excellent super-tough craftsmen.


    HERRERA: 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8

    CASTILLO: 1,2,9,10,11

    EVEN: 12
     
  12. GPater11093

    GPater11093 Barry Full Member

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    Wow, excellant McGrain, can almost picture the fight in my head. I'm going to buy some fights off RB very soon and this will be on my list.
     
  13. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    GP, there will be mistakes/oversights and exaggerations in my write up, but one thing I can promise you is that you will ****ing love this fight. Everything you love in the fights is right there in these 12 rounds.

    Also, there's loads of really interesting stuff i've left out, like the way Herrera seems to box to the cards towards the end, trying to get a "lead" on points and then not take any more risks (in a muted sense - nothing dramatic). It all affects the ebb and flow so much, but these are just marginal decisions sometimes. And then out of nothing they fight a war in a round (4 & 12).
     
  14. GPater11093

    GPater11093 Barry Full Member

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    I'm a fan of Herrera but all I have seen of him is his war with Olivares and he really does impress me there.
     
  15. natonic

    natonic Boxing Addict Full Member

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    It surprises me that these two guys don't get more love on youtube. great little fighters and a great fight.