the what fights did you watch today\scorecard thread.

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Mantequilla, Nov 20, 2009.


  1. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Mar 21, 2007
    Vicente Saldivar WPTS 15 Howard Winstone II

    That gorgeous jab probably wins Winstone the first, although it won him the first in the first fight also. Saldivar is putting the money in the bank with the bodyshots. Crowd loves Winstone's left handed work and he drops two good rights over in the second, too, but Saldivar is warming up a bit. Winstone is drawn into squabbles in the third. He loses these. He wants back on his bike that boy. It's not like he's getting beat up but he's not winning those exchanges. The best he's doing is an honourable draw. Still, he probably just shades the third which gives him a handy little lead.

    Big fourth for Saldivar, but Winstone doesn't look rattled. He's still making room for himself with footwork, still raking out that jab. Watching the fifth, it's hard to see how this fight makes fifteen. Saldivar very clearly has his "clever boxing" pegged. Interesting that Sadlivar is hardly bothering with his own jab. He knows if he's going to chance it he's as well trying something bigger. Now i've said that he's started to fire it :lol: That left-hand to the torso Saldivar is throwing. Jeezus. Winstone has some great sucess in six though, both insdie with uppercuts to the body and outside with the jab. Even at mid-range where he lands two-handed. But by the end of the round he's been blattered back under control by the champ. It's all square after six. The difference, though, is that Winstone needs to take a moment when he ships a proper punch to the Mexican; Saldivar can keep working with impunity when he is landed upon by the Welshman. But Winstone has a wonderful eighth round to keep it close, the first round i scored him since the third. He fought a great, great ninth too but Saldivar landed the harder shots, finding his way inside with hurtful punches. There's the championship difference.

    Winstone tends to lose passages when he tries to press which is very difficult or with this excellent fight headed where it's going. Trapped on the ropes he drops the eleventh and Sadlivar is out and ahead with four rounds remaining. Winstone just appears a little skittish now, like that bodywork Saldivar put in is having its affect. He's jabbing less, moving more, but he can't get away. Going into the 13th I have the Welshman in need of a knockout which you just know he isn't going to get. Disorganisation is a horrible state for a boxer to be in when he is up against a compact, aggressive genius type.

    A hideous barrage of punches drops Winstone for nine with a minute remaining in the 14th. Saldivar drives him across the ring and nearly batters him through the ropes before unleashing the kind of beating that should have stopped the fight.

    Great fight for such a one-sided scorecard.

    SALDIVAR:4,5,6,7,9,10,11,12,13,14,*15.
    WINSTONE:1,2,3,8,

    *Winstone down twice.

    11-4 Saldivar.
     
  2. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Mar 21, 2007
    Johnny Famechon UD15 Fighting Harada

    Another wonderful left hand, and this one brings Famechon the first round. He boxes very like Ken Buchanan I think, but Harada will make you pay for an uneconomical moves. In the second, Harada barrels Faemchon back before dropping a donker of a right over the top to drop Famechon for a quick count. This is what happens to a fighter who rellies upon movement and speed, when he gets gotten he can suddenly look like a disorganised runner as opposed to an elegant boxer. The KD punch was looping and up round the ear and Famechon must be discombobulated. A similar punch sends Famechon spinning but not down in the third. Harada is just trying to glide in with multiple jabs though; Famechon should be able to counter that punch. Anyway or no he gets the jab going in the fourth and that opens up his footwork. Harada made the round extremely close with bodywork later in the round but I lean to the Australian. These rounds are so back-and-forth; Famechon rushes Harada to the floor though and Harada receives the count, so Famechon has sneaked into the lead with the third in. Lovely duck and move on the ropes at the end of the sixth to leave the round all square on my card. Harada just about shades the seventh with a body attack but it's not made easy by Famechon's constant movement and that troubling left. But it's the right that gives him the eighth a brutal punch, Famechon's best of the fight and it probably helped overhaul Harada's body attack. I think i'd have to give Famechon the ninth, too - Harada needs this tenth round. He just about gets it moving back to a head attack in the final thirty seconds of the round, landing two punches. But he's not landing that cleanly, these right hands aside. Weirdly, the body attack seems to have let him down a bit.

    The flashing right hand to (anywhere on) the head is the punch for Harada now; it leaves him vulnerable to the jab though - so this is a classic battle for what remains. Harada takes a lead with a sizzling right hand that barrels Famechon over in a neutral corner and the fight, suddenly, is turned on its head. It's even in rounds, Harada ahead on the additional KD. Which thankfully makes the draw impossible. Famechon comes back determined and game in twelve, jabbing going away. So good that this fight has 15 rounds. Huge round for him to win, and he wins it. Very close thirteenth - i'm coming down for Famechon. All results still possible; Famechon wins the fourteenth out of sight, beats Harada hard, does damage, lands all punches - and then gets binned by another KD. Drama. It's just a leathal swinging right hand thrown from the boots, an ugly punch but a great one. Famechon is hurt.

    So I have Harada winning on the strength of the two additional KDs, but no real problem with the official decision for Famo by one point.

    HARADA:2*,3,7,10,11*,14*,15
    FAMECHON:1,4,5**,8,9,12,13,
    EVEN:6,



    *Famechon down.
    ** Harada down
     
  3. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

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    After my epic list has come to an end I find myself now only bothered about watching certain fights in order to answer questions I've been mulling over the last few years.

    My lists is my list now and the only way in is those who haven't yet retired or those who I've previously dismissed as being primitive greats.

    First on the revaluation list is Bob Fitzsimmons.

    Just watched his two fights on film, the one against Corbett and the one against Lang. I didn't really watch the fights though, I watched him, and only him.

    First off the footage is poor quality so it's hard making any judgement about hand or footspeed, on that I'm gonna give him the benefit of the doubt.

    Let's not beat around the bush here, his style itself is what raises eye brows. He is relatively flat footed and shifts movement of his upper body to evade blows. He holds his hands low down and relies almost solely on reflexes to avoid taking damage. I see this and at first I understand why the first time people watch it they laugh at how awkward and crude it looks.

    But then I think of the modern greats I've watched lately and two come to mind. James Toney was very flat footed as fast as defensive wizards go. He relied entirely on his reflexes to avoid shots and he was a sucker for the left jab. Another one who comes to mind is Muhammad Ali, he built his career on leaning backwards to stay out of range of those firing shots his way, he clinched a lot up close and was a sucker for the left hook. I know at times as he back tracked to avoid attacks he looked off balance, but then the same can also be said for Jones Jr, Whitaker and Naseem Hamed.

    I'm not trying to see something that isn't there, I'm trying to see what is there and see how it translates to modern boxing.

    All the men I've compared Fitz too there were natural athletes who wrote their own rules, is there any reason why Fitzsimmons can't have been that same man?

    Is it reasonable to say that Fitzsimmons was a MW phenom who captured the HW title years past his best relying on his ring generalship, experience and power?

    So if I assume Fitzsimmons was a naturally atheltic counter puncher who planted his feet and relies on upper body movement as a means of defence and if I think of him as a MW fighter, where does that leave me with him.

    He's 5'11 with a 71 inch reach. He's reasonably tall for a MW but with reasonably short reach. He's a murderous puncher, with top level durability. By planting his feet he needs to rely on being the stronger man and could find himself being pushed to the ropes if he isn't. I don't have many issues picturing Fitzsimmons countering from the ropes, leaning back against them as Ali did in Zaire. I think an aggressive MW would have a tough time beating Fitzsimmons.

    A tougher one is if he's being outboxed from range, we saw him eating jabs from range against Corbett but ultimately cutting off the ring, feinting, slipping and countering him with one punch. I find it hard to criticise him on that performance.

    I'm not concerned about the lack of punching activity, I think that's something that is easily fixed.

    Putting Fitz up against a HW fighter is insane for me. I wish we could have seen his courageous performance against Jeffries when he shredded his face.

    Putting Fitz against a LHW is even questionable for me because his style doesn't seem to work against a bigger man who is from a more modern era, leaning isn't something you'd recommend against a bigger man, he could add weight I suppose but it's more the physical constraints in terms of height and especially reach as a bigger man has every chance of outjabbing him from range.

    But as a MW man, suddenly his style doesn't seem so vulnerable. Against a man his size, leaning and countering isn't a weakness. Planting his feet and feinting an opening isn't a weakness. His power is beyond question and his handspeed will never be known. But send an aggressive puncher after him from the MW division and I honestly think he drops and stops them. Send in a back foot boxer to outbox him from range and I think you have to accept he's every chance of exploiting an opening.

    If I do view him as a MW fighter I then have to ask myself how I view today. Golovkin is an aggressive fighter who's there to be hit, I say that's probably 50/50 with a slight edge for Fitz. Saunders can box well on the back foot but we saw the success that a quite inactive and plodding Eubank Jr had against him, so there again I have to favour Fitz, more confidently this time.

    I have every faith he could at worst pick up a title today and at best unify the division. I don't doubt his ability to succeed today and the question that remains is how highly to rate him as a MW great.

    My conclusion, Fitz is not just a primitive great. He's certainly one of the best fighters to have fought and whilst I won't be putting him against HW or LHW fighters any time soon, as a MW he's a beast, I just don't yet know how beastly I rate him.
     
  4. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Mar 21, 2007
    Barry McGuigan UD15 Eusebio Pedroza

    What a night this was.

    Pedroza wants to get on his bike and jab, obviously, then punch before grabbing inside. McGuigan is right after him though, quick across the canvas, quick punches with either hand. He's got the speed to keep Pedroza moving and moving and i'm sure he's already wishing he had fewer years in his legs. By the second, McGuigan is dialled in on the Pedroza movement, which is so so early; he's jabbing very well on the front foot and shooting out a nice right hand to the body. Pedroza just can't stop moving. When he does he gets clipped. When he's moving, things are very close to even, Pedroza probably shading the battle of the jabs, McGuigan pegging him back with that right hand. Very nice skill in the third as McGuigan leans back from the right-hand danger-zone and counters.

    Pedroza stands his ground in the fourth in earnest for the first time, and he does brillliantly, thorwing uppercuts, a wide left to the body, he shades the exchange and then lands another uppercut but it's early to be abandoning the circling strategy adn go head-to-head and he is getting hit tot he body; all the while though sneaking in little hard uppercuts. The fifth is even better. Pedroza lands good punches including that flamboyant right to the body, McGuigan matches it with a left hook around the liver. McGuigan catches Pedroza with a hard punch at the bell of the sixth to make them even on my card.

    In the seventh, things change. Pedroza beings very very badly, almost ominously, getting hit repeatedly by the jab on the way in, missing with a wild right to the body and taking one in turn. It's Pedroza's best round of the fight. Things only have to be a little different, maybe, for Pedroza to hold his title. But Pedroza sleepwalks back to his own corner half way through the round and McGuigan detonates a right on him. Pedroza is shaken after a quick count but gets his legs back under him to see out the round. Pedroza comes out very aggressively in the eighth, McGuigan is taken aback by the sharp straight punches. But he comes back strong; by the end, he is on top. He keeps coming up on the inside then dipping up and landing this little left hook. Not a huge punch, but a good clipping one. I really can't separate them in that round so it's going to be even, don't like doing it, but there it is.

    Pedroza looks old in the corner.

    The champ just isn't moving off as quickly as he was before. His upperbody movement is good, but he's holding his ground more and that means that every now and then the challenger lands a crackling shot. In hard to score rounds, these punches matter so much. Hurt again in the ninth, Pedroza is clearly behind going into a crucial tenth. It's one of the poorer rounds of the fight but Pedroza spends the first minute or so short of quality. For all that Barry is untidy too, I think, probably, he shaded it in the final seconds. This makes him a heavy, heavy favourite to win. He also looks the fresher of the two, although with Pedroza's deep tank and performances generally in the final five, he'll be cautious.

    Pedroza shades the eleventh for me, in close, sneaky, clever punches, but his retreat now is disorganised and he's probably better holding his mark now. Although now i've typed that, Pedroza is moving well again and somehow winning this round. This means that I have Barry only two points ahead at the end of twelve.

    Pedroza looks recovered and is experienced. McGuigan is not and the pace is telling on him too. His footwork is very good though, he's still keeping Pedroza in the line of fire, but Pedroza is coming back with very good punches. McGuigan finds a tired Pedroza inside though and for a moment it looks like the champion might go, but once more he comes back. Pedroza now needs a KO on my card. I gave a close and untidy fourteenth to McGuigan on the pressure, too. The fifteenth also. He's just stronger now, notably so. Extraordinary stuff though.


    MCGUIGAN:2,3,6,7*,9,10,13,14,15
    PEDROZA:1,4,5,11,12,
    EVEN:8.

    *Pedroza down.

    145-140 McGuigan
     
  5. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

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    Ketchel vs Papke 4.

    Again after dedicating a good chunk of time to watching a primitive great I find myself much more impressed.

    Straight away in forgiving the clinching and low activity as it's a 20 round fight. Instead I'm focusing on facets of Ketchel that surprise me.

    Everyone knows about his power and how big he hits. His accuracy has never been questioned neither.

    What I have always doubted is his technique and defence. Fortunately we see him against the only man to truly beat him so far and by knockout no less.

    I was surprised enough to see he doesn't square up when he moves forward, I always thought he did. He moves behind a jab as well when backing Papke up. However he never rushes in which was something I was quite pleased to note.

    He has very quick feet and backs off when Papke approaches him, looking for the counter off the back foot which is normally followed by a combo and a clinch.

    He's no Mike Gibbons but he has no issues steeping out of range and rolling with shots that do land. He shows a caution you never read about as well.

    His punch variety is fantastic and he often takes advantage of the exposed body, putting money in the bank.

    Obviously the rounds are very limited as it was such a long fight but the energy he had in the last round shows just how conditioned and atheltic he was.

    Would he be able to fight Golovkin on the back foot like that? I don't know as Gennady has some of the best footwork I've ever seen. But Canelo certainly doesnt, nor does Cotto. I have no issues picturing him winning a tactically aggressive affair with these two which probably puts him no worse than number 2 MW today.

    He might be known for his power and for dropping Johnson but the movement and patience he showed here was very very impressive.
     
  6. heizenberg

    heizenberg Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Watched and scored the Mayweather vs Castillo first fight. I remember in the past thinking Castillo deserved the win. What I seen this time I thought Floyd won the first 5 rounds with his excellent defense and by sneaking in a few more shots and the cleaner shots. Two of the rounds we're very close. Castillo took the next three one of which was taken away from him for hitting on the break. Floyd barely won the 9th, the 10th was also very close I thought Floyd just took it by landing the better punches, but lost a point. The 11th was very close, gave it to Castillo. The final round Castillo I thought clearly won. In the end I had it 7-5, 6-4 counting the dedication for Floyd. This is probably the 4th-5th time I've watched this fight and this is the first time I recall seeing it for Mayweather. Very close and good fight though I can see how it could go to Castillo. Two of the first five rounds I scored for Mayweather we're very close and the 10th I scored for Mayweather was a tough round to score. Harold Lederman along with compu box heavily favored Castillo in the round. The 11th was a round which could've been scored opposite to Mayweather. In conclusion very close fight I don't think it can be labeled as a robbery either way you score it.
     
  7. rorschach51

    rorschach51 A Legend & A Gentleman Full Member

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    RAY MANCINI VS LIVINGSTONE BRAMBLE 1: 124-123 MANCINI (At the time of stoppage.)
     
  8. scartissue

    scartissue Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Here's the way I scored it.

    Round 1: 10-9 Mayweather
    Round 2: 10-10 Even
    Round 3: 10-9 Mayweather
    Round 4: 10-10 Even
    Round 5: 10-9 Mayweather
    Round 6: 10-9 Castillo
    Round 7: 10-9 Castillo
    Round 8: 9-9 Even (Scored it for Castillo but the ref deducted one point from Castillo for hitting on the break)
    Round 9: 10-9 Castillo
    Round 10: 10-8 Castillo (the ref deducted one point from Floyd for use of his elbow)
    Round 11: 10-9 Castillo
    Round 12: 10-9 Castillo

    Total: 116-112 Castillo

    I really felt Castillo simply exerted his strength over Mayweather throughout the second half of the fight. Pretty solid on my card.
     
  9. KO KIDD

    KO KIDD Loyal Member Full Member

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    Oct 5, 2009
    hopkins vs allen 2

    hopkins wins every round but 4 due to a point deduction with 3 being close

    this was a highly skilled street fight with some interesting acting to sell fouls

    this may have been the most aggressive i have ever seen bernard to start a fight he came right after allen forcing him backwards and throwing hard right hands.

    before the fight hopkins said allen is a better athlete in every category but i am the better boxer

    early on he proved that by taming allen with right hands and using superior defense and inside tactics making allen look lost. in the 4th total frustration took over for allen as he tried to over sell fouls by falling to the canvas several times. he did bravely come out for the 5the swinging away and landing but was quickly hurt and dropped.

    hopkins in a protest stormed out of the ring after the stoppage and took a stand when jim gray interviewed him at the boxing establishment over health insurance and fighter pay
     
  10. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Erik Morales UD12 Guty Espadas Jnr.

    Morales starts pretty tentatively, for him, but he follows the punches in and lands enough leather to take the first. He's more aggressive in the second round and I think wins it a little more clearly despite some great pressure from Espadas late. Familiar sound of Morales' corner begging him not to trade :lol:

    They do trade less in the third, though it's still lively; and I reckon Esapdas maybe nicks it on the workrate and press. Twitchy fourth, but Morales probably nicks it with some neat bodywork including a right uppercut to the torso. Morales getting that fast footwork behind a straight right at the beginning of the fifth. Then he snipes from a low position with another lead right, lands. Espadas is coming on but he could do with being a bit more careful about it - he should be moving his head or something. Espadas does take the sixth though to keep Morales in sight. The seventh, then, has the feel of a key round. Espadas took it despite a brutal rally form Morales. Espadas isn't doing all that much but until the last minute Morales did almost nothing. So this fight is there to be won. And all even after 8. I don't have Morales winning one since 5.

    Beautiful right uppercut from Morales after fifty seconds, thrown while moving away, back to the ropes. This is what he needs now. He's also getting the straight right over for the first time in a while (he has had success with the left hook). Booming right hand with 1:00 left.

    Oh, straight right to the body then another over the top. Morales is sleepy for this one but that's a beautiful two-piece. The rest of the round is closeish, but Morales has seen this off now I think. Only needs one more round to close it up.

    Morales starts the eleventh brightly, but Espadas ends up dominating him with roughouse bodywork at the ropes. Morales looks tired. I'm surprised. One round left - Morales for the win, Espadas for the draw. Morales begins by missing. Espadas is dropping a jab following it up with bodywork...Morales looks shattered. He's doing nothing. Espadas catches him with the big round. That's an Espadas round and a draw.

    MORALES:1,2,4,5,9,10,
    ESPADAS:3,6,7,8,11,12
     
  11. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Marco Antonio Barrera UD12 Prince Naseem Hamed

    I remember watching this fight live, thinking that Hamed would be good because he just looked like he had the distance pegged. He was "hanging" into the range with his right and i just thought he would land more punches, off the bat. I was disabused by those left hooks and then that right in the first round. Still, Hamed could hold a punch. He needs to in this round. He gets hit. A lot.

    Barrera has his hands high, he's compact, neat, he's boxing properly with proper respect for the opponent's punching power while Nas just fannies about as he always did, hands low, big punches, relying on speed, speed of hand and speed of reaction. Barrera has his number.

    Barrera is just too accurate. When Hamed ditches the right, he's off balance and out of position for the left, which will land. He's also having weird success showing Hamed the shoulder when he misses; turning away from the right hand and the left seems to just go whistling by. So Nas is off the pace, not at his best, that is clear. He lands on the inside though, with a very good punch - probably enough to take a scrappy, boring round.

    In the seventh, Nas is trying to jab more, not sure it goes great, Barrera is still working well with his jab. But that's a closer round I think. I have this uncomfortably wide now. I wish Hamed would win a round. I think he arguably got the eighth, he's fighting contrarily now though, coming forwards, trying to score a traditional jab while Barrera, weirdly, counters with lead power punches. Total role reversal.

    Oh **** MOTD, i'll finish this in a mo.

    Resuming.

    Nas is landing now, but here's Barrera coming back with his own good punches every time. The experience of the Morales fight telling, perhaps. Hamed maybe took that one though.

    Barrera just winding down the fight using Nas's aggression against him, taking advantage of his opportunities to punch, remaining disciplined in defence.

    BARRERA:1,2,3,4,6,7,8,9,11,12*
    HAMED:5,10,

    *Barrera has a point deducted for ramming Hamed's head into the turnbuckle and supposedly screaming "Who's your daddy??" at him :lol:

    So, 117-110 i think, what a hiding.
     
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  12. rorschach51

    rorschach51 A Legend & A Gentleman Full Member

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    LARRY HOLMES VS MICHAEL SPINKS I: 144-141 SPINKS
     
  13. rorschach51

    rorschach51 A Legend & A Gentleman Full Member

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    MICHAEL SPINKS VS LARRY HOLMES II: 143-142 HOLMES
     
  14. rorschach51

    rorschach51 A Legend & A Gentleman Full Member

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    MIKE TYSON 97 | 93 JAMES TILLIS
     
  15. rorschach51

    rorschach51 A Legend & A Gentleman Full Member

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    MIKE TYSON 100 | 89 MITCH GREEN