the what fights did you watch today\scorecard thread.

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Mantequilla, Nov 20, 2009.


  1. Jel

    Jel Obsessive list maker Full Member

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    Thanks for putting me on to the fight in the first place! I thought Sugar did particularly well to keep it as close as he did considering he was giving up the size and (seemingly) power advantage. It was a genuine lightweight against a puffed up featherweight. Sugar was particularly effective at bobbing and weaving to get past Mando's jab and scoring with his own jab and follow up power shots too. Mando should have won the fight more easily but didn't fight that smart in the second half until that final round. Not sure though whether the cut was bothering his vision as he seemed to get caught with shots I wasn't expecting him to.
     
  2. scartissue

    scartissue Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I once asked Mando why, with height and reach on Sugar and having cuts over both eyes, did he keep going back in the trenches with Sugar rather than use his physical advantages and just box him. He gave me some placating answer, but I actually knew why. It wouldn't have mattered if his eyeball was hanging out. Mando was neither boxer nor puncher. He was a fighter and was always going to go back in the trenches.
     
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  3. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Raul Perez UD12 Miguel Lora

    Perez is so quick for being so lanky. He really looked the complete fighter for a while. In this, his definitive outing, he grabbed ring centre immediate. Lora is also quick though and looking to circle very wide, foraging when Perez gets speculative while occasionally holding h is ground.

    Lora's strategy prevents Perez from getting his jab working, but it's at the cost to his own offence, early at least. Lora's attempts to dip and flash are warming though, and he has Perez swinging. A couple of those swings land hard to the body though, and bizarrely he's doing the better work inside when they come together. Lora's dazzling footwork goes unappreciated by the crowd and I have him two down after two. Second was close.

    You can't really underestimate Lora's problem here. He's forced to move outside and try to spring attacks on an opponent who is used to meeting men coming in. Perez meanwhile is just stalking and calmly deploying a body-attack and taking free shots at a retreating opponent's head. Probably nicks the third, but there is a lot of missing on both sides and in a more civilised era that round would be scored even.

    The fourth is a wonderful round of boxing. Lora really has taken Perez's jab from him. He's forced to walk a tightrope though; he's winning the round into the final minute where a couple of slips at middle-long sees Perez land some hard punches, including a cuffing left, which drew a nod from Lora. What a difficult task.

    This is some wonderful stuff. It's not that close on paper, I have Perez 4-1 up after five, but it's lovely boxing, parrying, mobility, a horrible clash of styles and advantages running against Lora and him trying to find a way to solve this awful puzzle. Borderline great fight.

    Lora sets fire to the ring in the sixth and I thought just about shaded an excellent, exciting round. No more moving for him, he's in the pocket against a superior body-puncher. Takes the seventh too with some dazzling mid-range stuff, has his man buzzed for about 3 seconds, too. This is something of a rally now. But taking the last minute of the round off to perch on the ropes was not wisdom and would have cost him any other round he won.

    Lora comes close to evening it up in 8 but succumbs to relentless pressure as the round winds down and ships some hard shots. Winning three in a row very close is a tall order at this level and I wonder if those thirty seconds might not be the ones that cost him. Perez is two rounds from home with four remaining and Lora looks tired.

    Perez wins the huge ninth despite a certain timidity born of Lora's determination to counter every attack. It's enough. Lora is getting hit now with punches he was going away from in the first half of the fight. I can see no way back for Lora now. He needs 10,11 and 12 for a draw on my card.

    It's gone for him by my card after the 10th, but Lora is so brave in starting another war in the 11th. He can't sustain it though. Pressure and pace have told. He gave ground too early and got knocked about a bit towards the round's end.

    PEREZ:1,2,4,5,8,9,10,11,12.
    LORA:3,6,7.

    So I have this a wide 9-3 to Perez, which feels wrong but is probably about right.

    Borderline great fight.
     
  4. KO KIDD

    KO KIDD Loyal Member Full Member

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    Went through the HBO best of 2017

    Gonzalez vs Rung Vi Sai all 3 judges plus Lederman
    1- 8-10 RV
    2- 10-9 G only judge 3
    3- 10-9 G all 3 plus Lederman
    4- 10-0 G 1 and 2 plus Lederman
    5- 10-9 G all 3 plus Lederman
    6- 10-8 G all 3 plus Lederman and Steve Willis said last warning before taking the point
    7- 9-10 RV all 3 plus Lederman
    8- 10-9 G Lederman, judges cards not shown
    9- 9-10 RV all 3 plus Lederman
    10- 9-10 RV all 3
    11- 9-10 RV all 3 plus Lederman
    12- 10-9 G didnt see Harold or real judges scores for it
    f: 114-112 for Gonzalez 7-5 in rounds
    1 Feldman 114-112 RV...2 Lederman 114-112 RV...3 Roldan 113-113 Draw

    Very good fight and for the most part I felt it was pretty easy to score as the judges and Lederman seemed to agree on a ton of rounds. I found it odd that Roldan didn't score the 4th for Gonzalez considering it mirrored 3 and 5 which he gave to Gonzalez. Round 2 i was a little against the grain so that helped make the difference on Julie Lederman and Glenn Feldmans cards.

    Very violent fight, Gonzalez came out kind of slow but the cut seemed to light a fire under his ass. I wont call this a robbery but I dont see how Rung Vi Sai got the nod. I think I could definitely switch round 2 but that would make it a draw. I dont think many rounds were close. There seemed to be clear winners in the rounds.
     
  5. KO KIDD

    KO KIDD Loyal Member Full Member

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    Golovkin vs Canelo

    1- 9-10 C and all 3 judges
    2- 9-10 C all 3 plus Harold
    3- 10-9 G judge 2 and 3
    4- 10-9 G all 3 and Harold
    5- 10-9 G judge 2,3 and Harold
    6- 10-9 G judge 2,3 and Harold
    7- 10-9 G 1, 2, and Harold odd judge 3 didnt score for GGG as it mirrors the last several
    8- 10-9 G 2,3 and Harold
    9- 10-9 G judges not shown but Lederman agrees
    10- 9-10 Canelo all 3
    11- 9-10 Canelo Lederman too but no judges shown
    12- 9-10 canelo saw none of the other scores
    f- 115-113 Golovkin

    1) Byrd 118-110 Alvarez
    2) Moretti 115-113 Golovkin
    3) Trella 114-114 even
    Lederman I believe had 116-112

    Going back and watching this fight with no commentary, crowd noise, booze in my system, suspense of the live event and a room full of people cheering this fight was a lot less exciting than it was with those other factors. I did not score it live because of those things and I dont like to score a fight or take a hard line without scoring a fight rbr and wont really disrespect the sport and judging by basing my opinion hard line without a real serious card. I did agree with Lederman a lot live and felt Golovkin won handily. When watching it again seeing Harold differ on 2 rounds was interesting.

    I know a common theme of the fight was Canelo won the first 3 easily and the last 3 easily and Golovkin won everything in between. I find this to be false as two judges gave Golovkin the third which I did too and Lederman gave Golovkin round 1 but not round 3. Not exactly cut and dry between 3 official judges and 1 former judge who is a regular TV scorer. I mean to me round 1 and 2 were very close. I know Golovkin really only landed jabs in round 1 but they were hard jabs. Golovkin was the ring general. Canelo threw flashy power shots but they didnt appear to really land clean maybe even not as clean as Golovkins jab.

    I had 4-9 as a sweep though I thought 5 was pretty tight despite everyone but Byrd giving it to Alvarez. The first 5 rounds reminded me much of De La Hoya vs Mayweather in ways. In that fight Oscar was able to use his size and jab to corner Floyd and then have ineffectual barrages on the ropes and corners while Floyd had the more accurate and flashy work. Difference being Golovkin was more consistent and defensively responsible and Alvarez was less accurate or effective as Floyd. One thing Golovkin fell short on that Oscar did vs Floyd was an inability to counter.

    This fight to me fell into a pattern. Golovkin jabbing Alvarez to the ropes and trying to find a way to hit the elusive target. Canelo sees everything and makes most miss or rolls with them. Alvarez fires back and Golovkin backs out of range making Canelo miss but does not make him pay. Alvarez then goes back to the ropes and rinse and repeat. This to me in a subsequent viewing without the suspense and drama of not knowing who wins kind of results in a dull fight.

    I was stunned to see Trella not give Golovkin round 7 only because 4-9 were very similar dare I say identical rounds and Trella scored all but 7 to Golovkin (9 wasnt shown in the breakdown so he may have differed but I dont know)..Given I had it 115-113 and Trella had 114-114 I would say its most likely the 7th is what costed Golovkin and to me its bizarre he scored it that way.

    Round 10, 11 and 12 sort of reminded me of Froch vs Dirrel. Froch was ineffective but very aggressive and Dirrel was super accurate and sharp but was very negative. Alavrez showed a lot of bravado hanging on the ropes and lots of defensive savvy but from 3-9 or 4-9 his offense was pretty dead. In 10 on he suddenly decided to let his hands go more and was very effective. Dirrel turned on a dime late in the fight hurting Froch and landing constantly but just ran out of time.

    In the 12 rounds I really dont think Canelo ever hurt Golovkin but did land the highlight real shot of the fight. Golovkins highlight shot was a looping right around the guard cant remember the round. I do think Golovkin momentarily hurt Canelo in the early part of the 9th but Canelo masked it well and did well to survive and fire back.

    All in all I cant say with any confidence was what Byrd was watching. I guess a draw is fair I mean Trella and I had very similar cards with Byrd and Lederman giving Alvarez the third and a large chunk of fans too. I wouldnt fight you tooth an nail if you said he deserved that round...Maybe you can argue the 5th to Canelo but 2 of 3 plus Harold saw it for GGG. At the same time Lederman gave GGG 10 and it was a close and competitive round. 7 rounds for Alvarez to me is stretch but 8 to Golovkin isnt necessarily. Moretti at 115-113 GGG and Trella even feel like the right card..I will say Alvarez had the body language of a beaten man in the announcing and post fight in ring interview

    The rematch, if there is one, boy thats tough

    Both seemed to take one anothers power. Both had plenty in the tank to go 12 and the last 3 were hard fought. I know Canelo gets the stick for his gas tank and he was heavily out worked but he finished strong.

    -GGG does he hit the body? Its a huge weapon for him in other fights but very unused here
    -Does he jab and move more? I mean Alvarez came out very negative but he is historically bad at facing movers who make him lead. GGG has stuck and moved example Lemiuex, I thought he would have fought Canelo like that
    -Can GGG counter him this time, something he didnt do. Or can he time him in an exchange like he did vs Geale and Wade and nail him mid punch. This didnt happen ever in the fight, there were not too many exchanges it was a lot of turn taking

    -Canelo, did he see something in the 10th. Canelo to me was only truly hurt seeming in 1 round. Other than that he took everything very well. As mentioned he turned a switch late and I felt he swept 10 on or at the very least 11 and 12 which saved his ass. Did he see a flaw or did GGG just stall out? If Canelo opts to come out of his shell early and try and trade or being the aggressor how does this go for him. Does he get caught? Does he gas? Or maybe he takes initiative and wins clear.
     
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  6. KO KIDD

    KO KIDD Loyal Member Full Member

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    Ward vs Kovalev II

    Ward 1.4.5
    Kovalev 2,3,6,7

    KO 8 for Ward
     
  7. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Raul Perez UD12 Gaby Canizales

    Mr.Miyagi singing the US national anthem pretty badly. No ****.

    Gaby has a great first, lead rights, and a wonderful sneak left to the body. Absolutely not buying into the idea that he has to get inside to win the fight. Very fine head movement.

    Great performance from Gaby. Keeping intelligent pressure on, just outside the scoring zone, moving his head, looking for that lead right, exchanging inside when he gets there, but he doesn't push for it. Perez doesn't have a jab anything like good enough for his reach advantage. I have it 2-2 after four tension soaked rounds. The momentum, such as it is (these rounds are close) is with Perez.

    The tension is out of the fight after six though; Perez has adapted. His defensive body positioning is excellent and he's following some of his punches all the way in to the pocket. Gaby just has many fewer counterpunching opportunities. It's not quite over as a contest, but Gaby is certainly being handed his hat. Great right hands from Perez in the sixth and seventh.

    Emmanuel Stewards begging Gaby to throw right hands in the corner, as he did in the first two. Be interesting to see if he, too, can adapt.

    Ooooo, he made it close, and predominantly with the right hand, just as Emmanuel implored him to. But Perez sneaks the round. He's a nightmare really. Huge range, very tall, good defence v the left hook, hardly vulnerable to the right, quick-handed, it's good stuff. He does it all at a very steady, inarguable pace, too. Good general with the attributes to support it.

    Technical and physical mis-match.

    Too wide to be named a great fight, it's still fascinating to watch Perez at his best.

    PEREZ:3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12
    GABY CANIZALES:1,2,
     
  8. scartissue

    scartissue Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    McGrain, I watched and scored this several months ago. For the most part, we're pretty close in score. Here is what I wrote at the time.


    Raul Perez vs Gaby Canizales II

    Their first fight ended on a 9th round cut eye TKO for Perez in a bout which was said to be dead even at the time of the stoppage. Here they are for the title.

    Round 1: 10-9 Canizales
    Round 2: 10-10 Even
    Round 3: 10-9 Perez
    Round 4: 10-9 Perez
    Round 5: 10-9 Perez
    Round 6: 10-9 Perez
    Round 7: 10-9 Perez
    Round 8: 10-9 Canizales
    Round 9: 10-9 Perez
    Round 10: 10-9 Perez
    Round 11: 10-9 Perez
    Round 12: 10-10 Even

    Total: 118-112 Perez

    This was a very fast-paced bout but Gaby could not solve that height and reach of Perez. I think they said Gaby was 5'5" 1/2 to Perez' 5'10". For a bantam that is Panama Al Brown dimensions. still, it wasn't just height and reach. Perez could really handle a punch and this was why he was champ because Gaby got through with some killer blows, just not enough of them to take many rounds. Actual scores were 119-109, 116-112 and 117-109 all for Perez.
     
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  9. Jel

    Jel Obsessive list maker Full Member

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    Watched Mancini v Kim for the very first time this morning. I've been avoiding that fight for years because of the tragic outcome but finally relented. Didn't score it because I just wanted to absorb it rather than analyse it in detail.

    Holy sheeet, that was one gruelling fight. Should the ref have stopped it in the 13th or even the 12th? It would have been a hard call because Kim kept coming back (even though we know now that he really had nothing left and was fighting from pure instinct). The way he went down at the start of the 14th, even if you didn't know you could have suspected he was going to be fighting for his life. Not a fight to sit through and enjoy but a fight worth seeing nonetheless. Just bought The Good Son on the back of watching it.
     
  10. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Miguel Lora UD12 Alberto Davila 1

    Lora coasts and showboats his way through this victory over Davila, in an uninspiring fight characterised by missing. Lora puts his foot on the gas a bit in the middle rounds and does enough to win it for me.

    Davila's persistence is admirable but he brings little else to the table; rematch unnecessary I would say.

    LORA:2,4,6,7,8,10,11,12.
    DAVILA:1,3,5,9.
     
  11. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Miguel Lora UD12 Alberto Davila 2

    Interesting to hear the commentary booth chat about how rare it was to have fighters who were unbeaten after 25 fights (Lora). Not anymore bud.

    Lora looks sleepy again, and despite his showboating he gets hammered in the first two rounds. Davila vowed to work harder in this fight, i'm not sure that's happening yet but he's certainly more alive to Lora's shortcomings; i'd say he's benefited from reviewing the first fight.

    Sure awake in the third though; great left hand, hooks and uppercuts. In fact he has it all his own way until the final seconds of the fifth when Davila landed and apparently startling right hand just above the ear. Fair play to Davila, he's creaking but he's not for going away. Speaking of going away, it feels like Lora's going away with this match, but I have them all square after six.

    Commentary is absurdly biased in favour of Davila, who is bleeding like a stuck pig from his right eye; they do good work in the corner to get it under control but Lora takes great delight in re-opening it...he's running away with this fight through ten.

    Lots of madness in this fight. Lora's corner has sugar-water rather than just water, illegal, there was some sort of white powder removed from a package in Lora's corner (also probably sugar) and some mad spectator walks by the ring and throws the towel in (ostensibly from Davila's corner) and temporarily draws the fight to an end.

    Overall, a good contest, the first half of the fight borderline great, too one-sided after the sixth.

    LORA:3,4,6,7,8,9,10,11,12
    DAVILA:1,2,5,
     
  12. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Jorge Lujan UD15 Alberto Davila

    Despite the absence of a KO, I'd argue that this is Lujan's masterpiece. Early he's jabbing but he turns it into that lovely disguised left hook. Just at bay, feinting with hands and feet, finding a lovely straight right early born of these affects. Davila is a persistent fifteen round fighter though, so Lujan knows he has to be careful.

    These rounds are hard to score, close, Davila looking to box under, Lujan looking to come over the top. He lands a lovely improvised uppercut in 2, but I think Davila just about outlanded him with a series of clever two-piece combos, something of which would tend to get home. Davila is also, impressively, winning the battle of the jabs.

    Beautiful left hook from Lujan changes the pace of the fight a little bit; Davila is now going away in small increments, Lujan stalking. Davila also cut again. Blistering, sudden left hook. The KD not scored by the referee.

    Lujan is very square, compensates with very high hands, and it allows him to toss over that straight right hand like a jab. He is perched over his lead leg in the orthodox fashion but he moves in and out of that square stance; a lovely additional layer of feint and punching potential if you're good enough to do it. Lujan is. These guys are staging a lovely technical match, sans-clinch. Davila back in the stalkers role in five. As a rule, whoever is pressuring is winning these rounds.

    That gets spun on its head in the sixth and seventh as Lujan gives ground gradually, welcoems the ropes and the corners, but outpunches his man, poking him with a straight right and setting him up for the occasional left hook, staying busy without overworking, exchanging inside but not getting left behind. It's gorgeous strategy and by the end of the eighth it has bought him a handy 5-3 lead. That lead is eroded by Davila's excellent pressure though and I have them all square after ten.

    Sometimes Lujan stoops in when he punches, down and around, but when he does it he's able to through either hand with equal authority; so there's a sort of in-built feint that means he gets away with what is an inadvisable move. It poaches him the eleventh.

    Couple of teak tough guys here.

    More absurdly biased commentary in favour of Davila; boxing really did love him. To be fair, he was splendid in his persistence and has some engine. Matched by Lujan's, or nearly.

    0 clinches in this absorbing fight which is borderline great.

    Lujan:1,4*,6,7,8,11,12,13,14.
    Davila:2,3,5,9,10,15.

    9-6 LUJAN
    *Davila down, KD not scored by the ref.
     
  13. Aburius

    Aburius Suspected Zurdo sympathiser Full Member

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    Glad to be of service, sir.

    I saw it the same way. I'm generally not a fan of the automatic "kd = 10-8" sort of scoring anyways. It often amounts to giving a guy 3 rounds for a single punch.
     
  14. scartissue

    scartissue Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Here is a bout I only recently discovered was out there. The 1973 featherweight title bout between Jose Legra and Eder Jofre. It had good moments early and eventually got a bit sloppy, but still a decent fight. Just a headsup, there is about a 10 second delay between audio and video. You'll hear the Brazilian audience screaming at everything Jofre throws. Anyways, here we go, 10 point system in effect.

    Round 1: 10-9 Legra
    Round 2: 10-9 Legra
    Round 3: 10-8 Legra (Legra scores a knockdown)
    Round 4: 10-9 Jofre
    Round 5: 9-9 Even (I felt Legra won the round but he lost a point for holding)
    Round 6: 10-9 Jofre
    Round 7: 10-9 Legra
    Round 8: 10-10 Even
    Round 9: 10-10 Even
    Round 10: 10-9 Legra
    Round 11: 10-9 Jofre
    Round 12: 10-9 Jofre
    Round 13: 10-9 Jofre
    Round 14: 10-9 Legra
    Round 15: 10-8 Jofre (another point deducted from Legra for again what appeared to be holding)

    Total: 142-142 Draw

    A lot of these rounds were close guys, so a lot of you can have different scores, but this was the way I saw it.
     
  15. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Fighting Harada UD15 Alan Rudkin:

    Rudkin was pretty dashing, wasn't he? Pretty elegant. Harada starts finding him with that right hand though, mainly to the body, and it feels like a swelling disaster. Awful, too, the way he sweeps that counter-left hook across, not always with deadly form but a real dissuasion to leading at a guy who is bringing pressure. That said, Rudkin is right there with him, absolutely zero dog in this fighter, he just gets out-threshed. Consistently out-threshed in the first two. Works well of the jab in the third though, and arguably, arguably wins that round, although it's very close. In fact, I think he puts Harada to sleep a bit with that jab. Rudkin is brave inside, trying to match, generally getting shaded, but he's doing the better work outside in the fourth.

    This is a close, well contested fight.

    The basic pattern seems to be that Harada will do well early before Rudkin boxes and punches his way back into the round. Generally, the recipient is decided by one or two quality punches landed by either fighter. Harada is busier and that gives him an edge through six for me but all the rounds after the second were close.

    Seventh is thrilling. Harada runs across the ring at bell and they just out and out fight for a few seconds before Rudkin establishes that precious distance. His problem is that Harada is so sudden and pouncing from outside that he is able to score well, whereas inside Harada edges things, usually. The swap vicious body blows in this round. Harada wins it clear (first clear round for either fighter since the second) and it leads to an unfair lead given how close the rounds are.

    Harada is all but out of sight for me after 10, winning an ugly round dominated by infighting with neither man landing anything conclusive. 7-3 with a KD is basically game over.

    Every time I think Rudkin has won a round clean, Harada finds a right hand to put it in doubt. I thought he had the 14th in the bag, but Harada arguably edged it with a swarm towards the very end. It's disheartening, because Rudkin is fighting very bravely, has given up on the jab and is just fighting Harada at his own game, and nearly, nearly finding a way. In the end though, I was only able to give him five rounds after a poor fifteenth trickled away from the Japanese via some outstanding Rudkin heart. Don't feel great about it.

    Rudkin: 3,4,9,12,15
    Harada: 1*,2,5,6,7,8,10,11,13,14,

    *Rudkin flashed.

    So I have it 10-5 Harada. However, I've never scored a fight with so many close rounds. Close ones are scored above in bold, these were rounds where an argument exists for either fighter but where i've favoured one or the other for whatever reason. If Rudkin gets the nod in all of these rounds, he'd win the contest 10-5! On the other hand, I scored him only one clear round, the last, so you could equally reasonably argue for 14-1 Harada.

    Good fight, but not a great one, with Harada winning, basically, because he was busier.
     
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