the what fights did you watch today\scorecard thread.

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Mantequilla, Nov 20, 2009.



  1. AlFrancis

    AlFrancis Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Sorry for the delay George. I'm like everybody else, I haven't seen the fight but I've spoke to dad about it. He said he just got copped early by a great shot in the first round and didn't really get over it. According to one write up I read he went down (left hook) and apparently out after a bright start in which he hurt Ruben (his words) with a good left hook. He got up and tried to get on his bike. His corner were screaming at him to stay out of trouble but he said Ruben knew he had his man, had the momentum and was right on top of him. Ruben was a great finisher, Dad called him a master of range. This wasn't working so he said he remembers thinking to himself, I'm going to have to have a fight which he did. He took the fight to Ruben for the rest of the round. He came out for the second taking the fight to Ruben again but you couldn't beat that 69 version of Olivares in a shootout and dad wasn't really a puncher. Ruben got him again and he was down. He said he was badly stunned, he wasn't feeling the shots he was hearing them BOOM. The fight carried on and he was down again at 2.30 of the round. This time referee John Thomas had seen enough and called it off. Dad was in the act of rising at the finish. The Boxing News described it as a savage effort from Olivares. Dad said it was a 5 and a half minute war, that's how it felt to him. I believe Lionel Rose watching live on Australian tv said he thought dad's approach to the fight was suicidal. Dad wasn't really one for excuses but he didn't have a great experience in LA. He was struggling with the weight, he was involved in a car crash the day before the fight and strangely enough he said he didn't like the ring. He said it felt like a trampoline and it effected his footing. Nevertheless he said Ruben was the best he fought and nobody hurt him like that. He said he'd never been hurt like that and that was to his detriment. If he'd had that experience before in hindsight he felt he should of grabbed and held on at all cost. The experience of this fight he always said helped him in a later fight against the Spaniard Agustin Senin where he was hurt early again, I think he was down three times in that but claimed and got through it. That went the 15 and dad finished strong but Senin was fairly awarded the decision, no argument. Dad always said that Senin who is unsung largely was a great fighter, strong as a bull and a southpaw. He always said Senin would of given Ruben problems. He retired at 26 unbeaten after 43 fights, 42-0-1. I heard dad in an interview in the 70's where he was asked if he thought the stoppage was early in the Olivares fight. He said yes he could of gone on, thought and then said, but maybe Thomas was right to call it, I could of got badly hurt. On a lighter note I once said to him that the Olivares fight doesn't seem to exist on film. He said. let's hope it f...g stays like that. I don't know how I'd feel watching it if it does surface, might be quite upsetting for me to see your dad in a desperate battle like that. Still, I'm pretty sure I'd watch it. I'm as curious about it as everybody else. It was filmed because it was shown in California, Mexico, Venezuela, Australia and the UK. It could turn up one day. Castillo-Cruz from the undercard is on youtube.
     
  2. George Crowcroft

    George Crowcroft Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Cheers man, amazing post, from a very knowledgeable poster.

    You're dad sounds like a very brave man, takes bollocks to get off your bike and start gunslinging with Rubén Olivares, especially given its sounds like it was his best performance. Shame he remains underrated as ever, especially in British circles. Although, no-one apart of the lower weight classes gets the credit they deserve.

    Didn't know about the weight issues, or the car crash, or any of the circumstances surrounding it. If film exists, I doubt it won't surface. Someone just has the have the spark of posting over on YouTube, it's just a waiting game, I guess. But wow, boxing really did shaft Rudkin.

    Senin seems interesting, I'll have a look into him. Someone who fought both obviously is very educated on saying how these fights would've gone down but(albeit without seeing anything at all of Senin) I remember Olivares destroying southpaws José Luis Ramirez and Walter Seeley.
     
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  3. AlFrancis

    AlFrancis Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Seen the Seeley fight, love to see the Ramirez fight.
     
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  4. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Arthur Abraham UD12 Robert Stieglitz

    The first of many! Charming little regional series this, fought in Germany by an Armenian and a Russian.

    First round of the rivalry so close it should obviously be scored even; as it is I snuck it to Abraham based upon some meaty half-landed right-hands. There's promsie here - Abraham's stalking versus Stieglitz better but less economical footwork. That's a promising clash of ideas. The two-piece and double-jab Stieglitz lands early all but guarantees he's pocketing the second though, I think. Abraham starts to move forward. He's a less good Huck, I think. Maybe just nicks the third, too, with some nice countering and a nice counter-uppercut in the final minute. Third is nearly as inscrutable as the first though. Exquisitely close fourth is followed by a clear Stieglitz fifth with Abraham turning in some very Huck-like moves, right down to standing at the ropes and letting his opponent unload. Throws in a shrug of the shoulders between Stieglitz attacks just to make it clear that he's not that bothered. And probably he isn't - he owns the last minute and just about outslugs his opponent who is suddenly called onto the front foot by Abraham's success and is driven back accordingly. Nice left hook lead to the beltline though. When he jab/right-hands his way to the sixth, Abraham has a meaningful lead.

    A semi-consistent left hand to the body brings Stieglitz back in touch in the seventh, but he wins the round by the absolute narrowest of margins. It's desperately close - and it feels like Abraham should have struggled with this round. But he stays in all these losing rounds (Except maybe the first) with a more consistent jab. Huck spends the first minute of the eighth "hiding" on the ropes behind the earmuffs though; another rather diverting mini-comeback probably pockets him another close round though. That makes the ninth rather huge - Stieglitz must win it to keep him relevant on my card. He gets it, being a little more conservative with his positioning and by punching consistently and without reaching. Hope his corner takes note.

    Aww man, having scored a close and untidy tenth to Stieglitz I seem almost certain to score this a draw.

    I'm surprised to see Abraham backed onto the ropes for the first minute of the 11th but he has won every round where he's done this so I shouldn't be scathing really. It's extremely difficult to score. Abraham has lost the first two minutes but does appear to buzz his man twice in the final minute. Very tough. On balance i'm going to give it to Abraham based on the harder rights, probably the hardest punches of the fight, but it is a coin toss this one. Stieglitz is quite heavily marked up around the eyes. Abraham, unmarked.

    Yeah, Stieglitz quite clearly takes the twelfth, so draw.

    Judges: 115-113 and 116-112 twice.

    Abraham: 1,4,5,6,8,11,
    Stieglitz: 2,3,7,9,10,12
     
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  5. AlFrancis

    AlFrancis Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I've just had another look at the Seeley fight. I don't know if you speak Spanish but the commentator mentions that Ruben has always had trouble with southpaws. Obviously didn't have trouble with those two though. He also said that Olivares was trying himself at featherweight and Jose Legra was about to defend his title against Eder Jofre. What a shame that fight never happened. Olivares Jofre. It looks like the first Art Hafey fight reading between the lines could of cost Olivares a fight with Jofre.
     
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  6. AlFrancis

    AlFrancis Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    By the way, dad and Ruben nearly had a return in the summer of 1970 in London. Ruben was also looking at Rodolfo Martinez at that time. One of the reasons Rudkin Olivares 2 didn't happen was they couldn't agree on gloves. The BBBof C wanted Baileys gloves and the Mexican Board were insisting on Reyes/Seyer gloves.
     
  7. George Crowcroft

    George Crowcroft Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I wish I spoke Spanish, but I don't. I've not seen it, but he did take Takao Sakurai out in 6, who was a respectable southpaw.

    That really sucks, I'd have love to see how that would've gone down, even if Jofre was obviously past it.
     
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  8. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Arthur Abraham UD12 Robert Stieglitz

    Stieglitz sets out to steam-roll Abraham again, having done so in the second fight, which he won on a third round stoppage. He's immensely strong Stieglitz, probably an underrated fighter, but with good cause, he never really matched the field. Abraham backing up, jabbing, and trying to hold the strongman. Stieglitz's round, all the way, Abraham is pot-shotting and counter-punching and holding. In the end, Stieglitz appears over-eager. Abraham isn't dominating, but when he attacks Stieglitz with a minute remaining he probably bags the round, and is clearly ready to go. Nice to see decisive rounds after the stramash in the first fight.

    Lots of missing, wrestling, Stieglitz is making a wild mess of the whole thing. Not sure it's in his best interests though! I scored him the third on the aggression but he's over-aggression - punching on the break, out of control in close, untidy on approach. So untidy, Abraham acrtually scores with a check-hook at the opening of the fourth.

    Abraham fought the last minute of the sixth like a man in trouble, and despite the fact that Stieglitz is occasionally making him look like Mayweather, he is a man in trouble. 4-2 is an inconvenient scoreline after six. If the trailing fighter doesn't score a KD or KO, he needs 5/6 rounds to win. That's a lot. A very good seventh, low hands, surprising, even varied lefts, is a good start though. I also thought he took a very, very narrow eighth with the right hand, but he lost the point to a dubious rabbit-punch ruling. Abraham would be feeling that might be costly; the fight feels very close. I have the docked point leaving Abraham trailing by a single point.

    Abraham wins a bit of mental, rowdy ninth, the referee has pretty much lost control but Stieglitz has been the naughty boy IMO, more than Abraham, and I think the ref knows that - so he lops off a point for Stieglitz probably for no better reason than evening things up. I think holding was the pretend reason. So I have Abraham in the lead for the first time in the fight and Stieglitz hasn't won a round since the sixth. Abraham, bizarrely, is counter-punching his way to victory. He even sneaks the rough, tough, horrible, awful tenth. Stieglitz now needs the 11th and 12th.

    He maybe nicks a thrilling 11th but is actually dropped in the 12th and so loses a weird fight 114-111 on my card. A rather berserk fight, not one I can wholeheartedly recommend but it had its moment.

    Abraham: 2,4,7,8^,9*,10,12**
    Stieglitz: 1,3,5,6,11

    ^Abraham, point off for rabbit punches. Bit harsh.
    * Point off for Stieglitz for holding
    **Stieglitz down
     
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  9. Jel

    Jel Obsessive list maker Full Member

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    Azumah Nelson v Calvin Grove

    Good, tactical contest this between the slick stick-and-move style of Grove and the bigger punching and more straight ahead style of Nelson. Grove got off to a shaky start with the opening round KD but recovered quickly to outbox and outfox Nelson for the rest of the first half of the fight. Nelson managed to get into it in the second half and land the bigger shots while Grove seemed more content to get on his bike than keep his punch output high. He regained some lost momentum though in the final two rounds to just take it on my scorecard but not on the judges. There were enough close rounds there that Nelson could have picked up a couple of extra points and swung the scores his way so not a robbery or signifcantly controversial, just a good, close contest.

    1. 10-8 (bad start for Grove, dropped by a left hook - although unhurt - and then looked to be wobbled a bit later in the round)
    2. 9-10 (Grove making Nelson miss shown showing great movement, beating him to the punch repeatedly)
    3. 9-10
    4. 9-10 (close, cagey round)
    5. 9-10 (Grove's movement is frustrating Nelson)
    6. 9-10 (near perfect fight plan execution by Grove so far. He's schooling the Professor)
    7. 10-9 (not easy to score; Grove content to keep his range but not throwing much, Nelson throwing and missing byt landing the occasional bigger punch)
    8. 10-9 (could have scored this for Grove but Nelson landed the biggest punches of the round at the beginning and end. In between Grove put together some nice flurries as Nelson stalked)
    9. 10-9 (clearer round for Nelson)
    10. 10-9 (another round where Grove lands more frequently but Nelson lands bigger. Last big shot swings it Nelson's way)
    11. 9-10 (better from Grove, he ran less and put a bit more pop into his punches and controlled the round)
    12. 9-10 (fancy footwork but not much punching from Grove in the first two minutes, Nelson holding a slender lead until the last 30 or so seconds where Grove puts some punches together and just edges it)

    Nelson 113-114 Grove
     
  10. roughdiamond

    roughdiamond Ridin' the rails... Full Member

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    Johnny Tapia vs Nana Konadu

    Tapia : Konadu

    1: 10 - 9
    Tapia boxing very well.
    2: 10 - 9
    Brilliant boxing and movement from Tapia.
    3: 10 - 9
    Cut! Close but Tapia takes it.
    4: 10 - 9
    Konadu picking it up slightly. Close.
    5: 10 - 9
    Tapia just that bit sharper and faster.
    6: 10 - 10
    Lots of grazing shots from both.
    7: 10 - 9
    Konadu just not doing enough!
    8: 9 - 10
    Tapia grazing. Konadu with a decent hook.
    9: 10 - 9
    Absolutely beautiful round from Tapia.
    10: 10 - 9
    Tapia sharp shooting.
    11: 8 - 10
    Cappuccino scores a knockdown from the slippy ring apron! Wow!
    12: 10 - 9
    Tapia playing to the crowd.

    TOTAL: 117 - 111 TAPIA

    Notes:
    • Superb performance from Tapia in his second weight class, against a very good, proven fighter. Brilliant movement and boxing, never let Konadu set, and he appeared to sleep walk through the bout as a result. Tapia was much more active and was the much better boxer.
    • MD? How!
    • Maybe Tapia's best win.
     
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  11. roughdiamond

    roughdiamond Ridin' the rails... Full Member

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    As of now, I am going to begin scoring fights from the 'Mexico vs Japan : Boxing's most Underrated Rivalry' series created by OfficeHanchoBoxing. There are some amazing bouts in there, so I invite our resident scorers to pick any that takes their fancy.

    It is also an extremely well made video, that was taken down but thankfully re-uploaded. It is a LONG, in depth collection at around 43 minutes. Link:

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  12. roughdiamond

    roughdiamond Ridin' the rails... Full Member

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    Mexico vs Japan series

    Toshiaki Nishioka vs Jhonny Gonzalez

    Nishioka : Gonzalez

    1: 8 - 10
    Nishioka down off a right hand. seriously hurt here.
    2: 10 - 9
    Nishioka landing some jabs and lefts to the body. Cagey round
    3: KO
    Monster left hand from Nishioka, from nowhere! Gonzalez out cold!

    Notes:
    • Pretty cagey match, as both men had big power (especially Gonzalez) and knew one wrong move would end the bout for them.
    • What a KO!
     
  13. Mario040481

    Mario040481 Member Full Member

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    Very surprised he didn't mention this fight here,* voted best Japanese boxing match in 1971. One of my favorites. ever
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  14. George Crowcroft

    George Crowcroft Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    2002-04-20, WBC Lightweight Title
    Official Cards: 116-111, 115-111, 115-111

    Don't think I've posted a score before of this one, and since I've given it to score for @Pakkuman in the H/W Thread, I might as well watch it myself. Iirc I had it a draw last time.

    Rd. PBF : JLC
    1. 10 : 9
    2. 10 : 9
    3. 10 : 9
    4. 10 : 9 (40-36)
    5. 10 : 9
    6. 9 : 10
    7. 9 : 10
    8. 10 : 8 (78-73)
    9. 9 : 10
    10. 8 : 10
    11. 10 : 10
    12. 9 : 10 (
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    Hard decision to get a consensus on, as it depends what you like. You like volume? Castillo won then, you like cleanliness/efficient work? All for Floyd. I don't mind anyone winning this as there were 3/4 rounds close enough to be flip-flopped. The real issue was the margin, neither won by 4/5 points. Mayweather was flattered by the judges, even if I agreed with the outcome.

    Mayweather was wicked, brilliant lead and feet, excellent defence ect. Even if you thought Castillo won, there's no way you can say he was the more impressive fighter. And that's with 20lbs weight disadvantage and an injury. Castillo was a tough guy who hung in there against a prime ATG. No shame.

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    • Me and Lederman disagreed after 6(I had it 59-56, he had it 57-57), in the end we disagreed quite severely. I had it 114-113, he had it
    • Mayweather didn't look particularly injured here but there were tell-tale signs, his unnatural stance-shifting showed it.
     
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  15. roughdiamond

    roughdiamond Ridin' the rails... Full Member

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    ****ing hell get some sleep lol.
     
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