the what fights did you watch today\scorecard thread.

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Mantequilla, Nov 20, 2009.


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  1. Mario040481

    Mario040481 Member Full Member

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    ATG for certain, man.
    This is, least in my opinion, a good fight to use as an example of the often ridiculous notion some call "triangle theory" or in MMA Ive seen it called "MMA Math." This "formula" looking similar to the following: "Fighter A would, without doubt, defeat fighter B because against their shared opponent, fighter C, fighter C was defeated in a much easier/thorough fashion by fighter B then that of fighter A."
    We see many ding-dongs who'll say "What? Why even make that fight? Fighter A already..."
    Whether right or wrong, whether one believes the decision in Jose Luis Castillo vs Mayweather 1 was the correct one or not, the fact remains that it was extremely competitive, and I personally think that when there is controversy over winners in close fights, no matter my own opinion of the winner or amount of competitive nature in the fight, it is something that shouldn't be overlooked completely. If some group thinks the other losing fighter got hosed, it should, more often than not, tell us that at the very least, the fight was competitively close.
    Chico Corrales, in a fight no one would ever not call competitive, managed to overcome some ridiculously crazy style (not fighting style) adversity and win a fight he was very nearly as "KTFO" in as it gets and doing so in a fight against the one fighter that a lot of people, and we all know that this is a HUGE amount of people, think gave Floyd a true loss. Triangle theory would have it that Coralles should've had an excellent chance to beat Floyd. Hell, the "tale of the tape" gave Coralles an excellent chance to beat Floyd. Floyd gave Coralles NO CHANCE whatsoever to beat him that night. He didn't do it by running away either. He straight effed Coralles' world in that fight. Outskilled him everywhere and way. It's also a good "styles make fights" example and shows anything can happen on any given nite, and that at the world level, the fights should be made regardless of any dumb theory as long as they make some sorta sense

    I heavily edited this as I didn't like the way in which my original writing was getting my point across
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2020
    Mario040481, Feb 24, 2020
    Mario040481, Feb 24, 2020
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  2. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    James DeGale UD12 Andre Dirrell

    Nice trailing counter-uppercut out of the southpaw stance from Dirrell in a first round Degale looked to take control of. There are some really nice little defensive moves in here, the first round is way better than I remember the whole fight being. It was very late by memory. Dirrell has that high trailing shoulder - is in a bad mood. Tough to score that first round, intriguing.

    Dirrell looks a little quicker to me; i also think he has a marginally truer jab. Degale cut, probably by a left hand, this is the beginning of his bang-ups I suppose where he seemed to get hurt in some way every fight. Ooooo cheeky counter hook (kinda) From the southpaw stance and Degale has dropped Andre, once, twice, he was seconds away from 20-18, instead he's got a lead.

    Fascinating now. How does Andre re-establish himself? He was winning, had DeGale cut, looked quicker, had started to time the jab. Can he get it back? DeGale meanwhile had his man in bad trouble sixty seconds ago, where should he go from here? I like Andre's start better - stiff jab, conservative, careful. But two good lefts 20 seconds from bell puts DeGale in command once more. Power bailing him out! Goes orthodox for round four.

    I like the double-right-hand form DeGale there, a jab but he rushes in behind it and lands a little straight. He can riff, James. Fifth is a big, big round, Dirrell takes the fourth and this is a momentum round. After losing it, Dirrell keeps himself in the fight with a punch right at the bell, but I thought James nicked it and that's the fight, no way back from Andre without KDs.

    James is interesting here, he's moving well, but when he plants his feet he tends to dominate the exchanges, busier, aggressive in this portions. Has he started to gas a bit though? Vanishes to the ropes at one point...they both look a little tired. Dirrell seems to be coping better with the fatigue though. James is letting the rounds slip. Dirrell is making this fight. James has his hands low and is looking for single shots. Lots of slow pedaling.

    "Work mother****er!" demands Andre after round one :lol: Maybe should have kept his mouth shut - here comes James in the tenth. Fades though. It's a close round but Dirrell takes it. I spoke too soon. He has now won 7,8,9,10 on the spin. All tied. Finally, DeGale stops the rot in the eleventh. I don't know if it needs to be this hard - you can just see he lacks gas, shame he never ever took care of that in the gym. Some guys just can't I guess.

    He snuck it though. I had it 114-112 James Degale.

    DEGALE:2*,3,5,6,11,12
    ANDRE:1,4,7,8,9,10,

    *Andre down twice.
     
    McGrain, Feb 25, 2020
    McGrain, Feb 25, 2020
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  3. Jel

    Jel Obsessive list maker Full Member

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    Great post - completely agree.
     
    Jel, Feb 25, 2020
    Jel, Feb 25, 2020
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  4. George Crowcroft

    George Crowcroft He Who Saw The Deep Full Member

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    This content is protected

    1998-12-29, WBC BW Title
    Official Cards: 49-46, 48-47, 47-48

    Rd. VS : JT
    1. 10 : 9
    2. 10 : 9
    3. 10 : 9
    4. 9 : 10
    5. 10 : 9 (
    This content is protected
    )

    This content is protected

    Wow. Sahaprom was an animal, watching him DESTROY the super tough, uber-talented Tatsuyoshi is highly impressive. It was brutal display to get the finish from Deathmask.

    Deathmask was unbelievable, subtle defence, brilliant movement and jab, textbook body shots and one helluva right hand.
     
    George Crowcroft, Feb 25, 2020
    George Crowcroft, Feb 25, 2020
    #6004
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  5. roughdiamond

    roughdiamond Ridin' the rails... Full Member

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    It was an awesome performance, but Joe was finished at this point in time.
     
    roughdiamond, Feb 25, 2020
    roughdiamond, Feb 25, 2020
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  6. George Crowcroft

    George Crowcroft He Who Saw The Deep Full Member

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    Was he? He didn't look it. I'd that's how good he looked then, I need to watch him in his prime! Seriously though, was he gone, or slipping? I have no doubt the amount of brawls he was in played a part in him fizzling out.
     
    George Crowcroft, Feb 25, 2020
    George Crowcroft, Feb 25, 2020
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  7. roughdiamond

    roughdiamond Ridin' the rails... Full Member

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    Yeah, there was that, but it was mainly his eyes. They were absolutely ****ed. You can tell (especially in his sparring, but here as well) as he doesn't judge his distance well, though his superb movement and explosive punches disguise it at first glance.

    For reference, no one picked Joe over Singwancha, and it was seen as a 'miracle win'. He was gonna get banned by the JBC if he lost.

    If you are interested, there is a full biopic on Joe's career with behind the scenes footage spanning 20 years. It's fully translated. You can find it on the internet.

    Also you are right about gym brawls as well. I think he got his retina problems from sparring! The guys training routines were ridiculous.
     
    roughdiamond, Feb 25, 2020
    roughdiamond, Feb 25, 2020
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  8. roughdiamond

    roughdiamond Ridin' the rails... Full Member

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    Also, the type of guy he was and his style, he wasn't gonna go long (prime) anyway. That's why he was progressed so fast.

    Bright flames burn twice as bright.
     
    roughdiamond, Feb 25, 2020
    roughdiamond, Feb 25, 2020
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  9. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Kal Yafai UD12 Israel Gonzalez

    Controversial fight this one.

    I thought Yafai poached the first, close, but Gonzalez landed some jabs to the body that make it arguable. If it has to go to someone i'll take the jab to the head. The Mexican is busier though, and Yafai looks like maybe he feels like he has to push the contest against a fighter who was clearly a little underrated going into this. Fluid straight-line combos are pocketing the second for him, although jab and bodywork in combination keep the round close.

    Gonzalez is unconcerned with Yafai's punching power and he takes every opportunity to punch while ceding the territory. It's a fascinating strategy, backing out while out-working an opponent who is determined to "take command". Let him have the command - then outfight him anyway. It's interesting stuff.

    Is Gonzalez a tiny bit quicker? He's certainly absolutely committed, there's really so little in this that these small differences are making a big difference, 3-1 in rounds after four, getting round the corner on Yafai, it's pretty in spots. Fifth is one of "those" rounds, a big one. Gonzalez begins, just touching him, prodding to the body, out-scoring him. First minute in the bank. And Yafai is in trouble.

    Gonzalez is cut. If the fight is stopped at this point, Gonzalez would be winning on my card. Astonsihingly, it is "even" on the Sky Sports Card, which is really poor. Yafai is circling, following, but there's no real offensive quilt, he's sort of moving and throwing punches with no real strategy. More purpose in teh seventh, he wants the inside, he's going to jab his way in, meanwhile Gonzalez started looking a tiny bit sorry for himself at the end of the sixth and his work rate is down. All square after eight, i have Yafai winning 6,7 and 8; six and eight could have gone either way. Yafai has had three close rounds, Gonzalez two.

    Yafai:1,6,7,8,9,12
    Israel:2,3,4,5,10,11

    Draw for me. 116-112, 116-112 and 117-111 are too wide, but i've no problem with Yafai the winner.
     
    McGrain, Feb 27, 2020
    McGrain, Feb 27, 2020
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  10. roughdiamond

    roughdiamond Ridin' the rails... Full Member

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    Gaspar Ortega vs Charley Scott

    Ortega - Scott

    1: 9 - 10
    Blistering start; extremely close, but Scott is tighter and more efficient.
    2: 9 - 10
    Ridiculous action. No let up for 3 minutes straight, pure infighting!
    3: 10 - 10
    Ortega adpating, but Scott evened it at the end by rocking him repeatedly.
    4: 10 - 10
    This time, Ortega evened it at the end.
    5: 9 - 10
    Scott again that bit more compact and powerful.
    6: 9 - 10
    Brutal body shots.
    7: 10 - 9
    INSANE action.
    8: 10 - 9
    Ortega more effective now. Great inside defense.
    9: 10 - 10
    Again, very close.
    10: 9 - 10
    Most insane exchange I've ever seen in a bout!

    TOTAL: 98 - 95 SCOTT (SCOTT 5 ROUNDS, ORTEGA 2, 3 EVEN)

    Notes:
    • AMAZING fight. One of the best I've ever seen for brutality, workrate and skill combined.
    • Close throughout, but Scott was clearly that bit better here, and it showed. He had Ortega in serious trouble a few times. Must've had one hell of a hook.
     
    roughdiamond, Feb 28, 2020
    roughdiamond, Feb 28, 2020
    #6010
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  11. scartissue

    scartissue Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Rough, I scored this a couple of months back after Philly scored it 6-4 for Scott and he loved it so I had to check it out. Here is how I had it.

    Phone booth warfare. Scoring on the NY rounds basis.

    Round 1: Ortega
    Round 2: Scott
    Round 3: Scott
    Round 4: Even
    Round 5: Scott
    Round 6: Scott
    Round 7: Ortega
    Round 8: Ortega
    Round 9: Even
    Round 10: Scott

    Total: 5-3-2 Scott

    Man, there is no telling what these two could do in today's era. Todays fans would be talking about them as all-time greats. They just happen to come from a very strong era that entertained audiences. Outstanding fight. Incidentally, for those that love stats, Actual scores were 5-4-1, 6-3-1 and 6-1-3 all for Scott.
     
    scartissue, Feb 28, 2020
    scartissue, Feb 28, 2020
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  12. Henry Hank

    Henry Hank Mexicans Run Houston Full Member

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    Aug 30, 2019
     
    Henry Hank, Feb 28, 2020
    Henry Hank, Feb 28, 2020
    #6012
  13. Henry Hank

    Henry Hank Mexicans Run Houston Full Member

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    Terrific fight that one between two of the most exciting fighters of that era. Check out the Jose Stable vs Charlie Scott fight if you havent seen it yet, its pretty good.
     
    Henry Hank, Feb 28, 2020
    Henry Hank, Feb 28, 2020
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  14. Jel

    Jel Obsessive list maker Full Member

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    Just scored it:

    Gaspar Ortega v Charley Scott

    1 10-9 (close)
    2 9-10 (close again)
    3 9-10
    4 10-10
    5 9-10
    6 9-10 (close)
    7 10-9
    8 10-9 (close, a bit scrappier)
    9 9-10
    10 9-10 (close)

    Ortega 94-97 Scott

    We only differed on one round, the 9th - I gave it to Scott, you had it even.

    Scott won this pretty clearly - he was working that bit more inside and he landed the harder punches (that had more impact) and had Ortega backing up for most of the fight. Terrific infighting from both of them though.
     
    Jel, Feb 28, 2020
    Jel, Feb 28, 2020
    #6014
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  15. roughdiamond

    roughdiamond Ridin' the rails... Full Member

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    Yeah, I think Ortega's ridiculous schedule and number of bouts got to him here, as well as Scott's banging hook.
     
    roughdiamond, Feb 29, 2020
    roughdiamond, Feb 29, 2020
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