the what fights did you watch today\scorecard thread.

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Mantequilla, Nov 20, 2009.


  1. George Crowcroft

    George Crowcroft 'Snarky Little Gobshite' - IntentionalButt Full Member

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    Sure thing man. If you're looking for action, then the Tokashiki, Ohashi ramtch, Kittikasem, Chitalada II, Torres III and Zapata I. Those are all great fights IMO, but maybe that's not what you were after.

    His best performances were Zapata II & Torres I. These are the camps he's rumoured to have had absolutely no problems with making the weight and so could focus 100% on boxing, endurance and strategy. Ursua & Ohashi I are also great performances.

    Chang had massive problems with weight. I think that's why he burnt out so quickly. Every fight he seemed to booze binge and bloat up 30-40lbs, and then have to spend most of his camp working that off. Or at least that's what I remember from @FighterInTheWind's posts. I'm sure you could search the word Chang under Fighter's wind and find some brilliant info.

    His decision losses to Chitalada and Zapata are highly controversial. The first Chitalada fight was pretty clear, and was only a difficult outing for Chang due to a head-butt. He won handedly in another impressive performance.
     
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  2. Jel

    Jel Reserving the right to be inconsistent Full Member

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    I'm by no means a Chang expert - of his fights the ones I've seen so far are:
    Hilario Zapata 1 and 2
    Sot Chitalada 1
    Tokashiki
    Ohashi 2

    I'm not a huge fan of him by any means and I scored the first Chitalada fight as a draw and said in my summary that I was more impressed with Chitalada's performance than Chang's.

    When I joined the forum, it was a real surprise to me that there were die hard Chang fans and that people recognized him as the no. 1 light flyweight in history. That doesn't mean I strongly disagree with it, just that I don't think it's a clear cut thing - but, like I say, I'm by no means an expert. I will try and watch some more of his fights though so I can personally appraise him better.
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2020 at 8:34 AM
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  3. Bujia

    Bujia Active Member Full Member

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    How’d you see the first Zapata fight?
     
  4. Jel

    Jel Reserving the right to be inconsistent Full Member

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    Well, like @scartissue mentioned, round 3 was missing and it was a really close fight with lots of debatable rounds but I had Chang one point up at the end. A draw or a Zapata win are both reasonable from what I saw.
     
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  5. George Crowcroft

    George Crowcroft 'Snarky Little Gobshite' - IntentionalButt Full Member

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  6. Bujia

    Bujia Active Member Full Member

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    Right on. I’ve never seen it as a robbery. It’s a fight I’ve watched multiple times which, depending on the day, I’ve seen as a close win/loss for both. Similar to Canzoneri/Chocolate or even Leonard/Hagler in that regard.
     
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  7. Bujia

    Bujia Active Member Full Member

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    I recall seeing a post you made a while back where you’d scored it to Zapata by a point.

    For whatever reason, the post I quoted isn’t showing up. That was directed at George.
     
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  8. George Crowcroft

    George Crowcroft 'Snarky Little Gobshite' - IntentionalButt Full Member

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    Yeah, it's coz my post is just two quotes. I did have it for Zapata a while back but I can't find that card. When I rescored it I had for Chang, as you can see.

    I tend to think that this was a close fight, which could have gone either, but should have gone Chang's way more times than not. I do love Zapata though, and can tell you do from the name lol.

    I was actually planning on scoring the Laciar and Bassa fights when I get home from college.
     
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  9. Bujia

    Bujia Active Member Full Member

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    It’s been years and years since I watched it, as it was a pretty lackluster affair, but I recall scoring the Laciar fight to Zapata by at least 3 points. With the strong impression that he could’ve won even more handily had he just exerted himself more.

    Again, it’s been quite a while, but as I saw it Laciar had no business even making the fight close. The size and style disparity completely favored Zapata. So much so that I saw it as a subpar performance from him despite Laciar’s class as an opponent or the fact that I had Zapata winning relatively clearly on points.

    ****, it’s probably time for me to rewatch it, too.
     
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  10. George Crowcroft

    George Crowcroft 'Snarky Little Gobshite' - IntentionalButt Full Member

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    I started to watch it, but honestly, I packed it in after four rounds. Looks like a pretty poor fight and with quality footage like that, I'm just gonna leave it and take your word on it. Definitely up for the Bassa fights though. Never seen them ones before, the style clash rounds brilliant.
     
  11. scartissue

    scartissue Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Thanks, George.
     
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  12. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Juan Franco Estrada SD12 Bryan Viloria

    Whole thing is up on YT now. Not seen it since it occurred. Seven. Years ago. Vow.

    That gorgeous Estrada left; you know it when you see it, you know it straight away, straight and long, the splitting uppercut, the long lashing uppercut. It is Viloria who landed the hardest punch of the first round though, also a left. Estrada looks the more dangerous package though, that jab, mercy. So much variety on that punch - hook, uppercut, jab and he throws all punches in all circumstances. Sometimes he steps in and just "L" the uppercut out there in front of his head. These punches bag him the second, although Viloria is having some success countering Estrada's activity. Viloria takes the third with body shots, Estrada lands a beast of a right hand in the fourth to bag that.

    Estrada's plan is based upon surprise. He throws a wide variety of shots form all positions with consistent speed in order that Viloria can't settle on a punch. He occasionally feints with his right but it's not a deep part of the strategy. His strategy is variety. Viloria finds him based on this strategy in the sixth, timing Estrada with his right hand but drops the round to uppercuts; Viloria though wins the seventh. From here though, I see it a sweep to Estrada, punches are too hard, too consistent to be anything like one-sided but it's Estrada who sees it out, clearly.

    The difference, perhaps, was uppercuts, although Estrada through such a variety of punches that leaning on one is difficult. Good performance, perhaps a peak performacnce.

    Card for Viloria is absurd.

    Estrada:2,4,5,6,8,9,10,11,12.
    Viloria:1,3,7,

    117-111 Estrada
     
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  13. George Crowcroft

    George Crowcroft 'Snarky Little Gobshite' - IntentionalButt Full Member

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    Hilario Zapata vs Fidel Bassa I

    Really fun fight, wish I'd seen it earlier, actually.

    Zapata-Bassa I
    10 : 9*
    9 : 10
    9 : 10
    10 : 9
    9 : 10 (47/48)
    10 : 9
    10 : 9
    9 : 10
    9 : 10
    10 : 9 (95/95)
    10 : 9
    10 : 9
    10 : 9
    10 : 9
    10 : 9 (145/140)
    Nothing in the first, feeler out round.

    Awesome second, Bassa looked to be having a bit more of an affect when he landed. Could be Zapata rubbernecking TBF, but he wasn't helping himself.

    Bassa working more in the third.

    Insane defence from Bujia in the fourth. I liked his lead too; very versatile.

    Bassa shifting forward with his lead-right, then hooking to the body, landing with that. His tidy pressure is really fun to watch, and his slipping of Zapata's long uppercuts is setting up his wheelbarrow right. Zapata hooking off the jab; neglecting his left.

    Fast start from Bassa after he knocks Zapata off balance. Zapata slips most, and ends up back in control.

    Still in control here, Zapata jabbing and shutting Bassa's offence. Good round from Bujia.

    Had to break here, something came up.

    R8: wtf :lol:

    R9: Extremely close, Bassa aggressive and landing slightly more.

    R10: Another close one. Bassa movinh forward and landing little, Zapata moving backward and throwing little. Difference being that Zapata's defence was ****ing insane.

    Excellent timing on Zapata's 1-2 here. Bassa's head-movement was very predictable compared to Bujia's. Both men throwing, but only one landing with regularity.

    Bassa still coming forward and throwing lead rights, but jabbing often. Zapata stuttering his shots, countering with his jab, feinting brilliantly but most importantly; he's moving. Moving way too much for Bassa to land.

    Bujia more aggressive now, he's standing in the pocket for longer stretches, and so Bassa's getting a few extra shots in. But tbh, Zapata's still totally in control, he's wiring Fidel up with shots and he can't miss. It's his fight and has been for a while.

    Slower round, Zapata still in control.

    Not enough passion from Bassa in the finale. You'd have thought he'd come out blazing, knowing he's down, but nah. He lulled his way throught it and saw the end, where he lost 10-5 on the GC card.

    Very good fight, but pretty one sided late IMO. Zapata had him figured out after 10, and swept the final five on my card. None of them were particularly close, either. So now I'm interested in hearing opinions from those who can see a draw here, coz I'd consider this wide enough to be called a robbery.

    I do love some of the moves Zapata does. He can look so damn good at times; like a Sweet Pea/Laguna hybrid. That little weight shift on his feet, pause then rapid movement in a completely different direction just made Bassa look foolish. I also like how he shifts his weight when punching, it makes his feints really believable and I saw some brilliant one-handed combinations. In round five, he feinted a jab, actually jabbed, threw a double lead hook and then a lead uppercut. All landing.

    Mental.

    Bassa was pretty damn impressive too, TBF. He was super dexterous on his toes and came straight in with some nasty rights and set up his hooks to the body well. Just not well enough as it happens. He just wasn't varied enough IMO.
     
  14. Jel

    Jel Reserving the right to be inconsistent Full Member

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    Matthew Saad Muhammad v John Conteh 1

    I rewatched this after finding a complete version (the previous one I watched had 3 rounds missing). I didn't rescore everything, just the rounds I missed and I think that made a big difference to my perception of the fight from before. I had this 7-6 Saad going into the 14th and it was clearly nip and tuck all the way. The commentator was clearlyva bit of a Conteh fan and managed to still have him in the lead after the 14th, which I find hard to understand.

    Without the knockdowns it would have been close - very close, although I think Saad would probably have still shaded it, probably on a split. But in a fight like this, the knockdowns really matter. It was a bit like Winstone-Saldivar 2 in that way. Conteh undoubtedly showed some nice moves and slick counters but Saad outworked him in my view and the knockdowns sealed Conteh's fate.

    1 10-9
    2 10-9 (close)
    3 9-10
    4 10-9 (Conteh showed some nice defense but needs to up his workrate)
    5 10-9
    6 9-10 (big round for Conteh - landing overhand rights that seemed to stun Saad and also cut him)
    7 9-10
    8 10-9 (close)
    9 9-10
    10 10-9
    11 10-9
    12 9-10
    13 9-10
    14 10-7 (big round for Saad - 2 knockdowns and Conte does well to survive)
    15 10-9
    Saad Muhammad 144-139 Conteh
     
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  15. scartissue

    scartissue Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Jel, here is my card and what I wrote when I saw it.

    Saad Muhammad - John Conteh I

    I was a huge Conteh fan back in the day and may have leaned a little towards him back then. Watching it now more impartial I can say that although John's defense was brilliant, he relied too heavily on it and needed to be busier offensively. There were times that were screaming out for a Conteh counter when he seemed to be more content with ducking away and resuming jabbing. Anyways here we go. 10 point must system.

    Round 1: 10-9 Saad
    Round 2: 10-10 Even
    Round 3: 10-10 Even
    Round 4: 10-9 Saad
    Round 5: 10-9 Saad
    Round 6: 10-9 Conteh
    Round 7: 10-9 Conteh
    Round 8: 10-9 Conteh
    Round 9: 10-9 Saad
    Round 10: 10-9 Saad
    Round 11: 10-9 Conteh
    Round 12: 10-9 Conteh
    Round 13: 10-10 Even
    Round 14: 10-7 Saad (2 knockdowns)
    Round 15: 10-9 Saad

    145-141 Saad Muhammad

    Of course, the fan in me will always say that the Conteh from '74 would have taken Saad. But regardless, two great warriors.
     
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