Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Mantequilla, Nov 20, 2009.
I thought this was one of Tyson's better performances late in his career.
Tyson Fury SD10 Francis Ngannou
There is absolutely nothing in the first round, which under a civilised scoring system would be even - as it is I gave it to Francis because I thought the best right hand he landed in the round was the hardest punch of the round, very fine margins here. The most impressive punch was the lead right hand he landed to Fury's gut though as the latter moved away from the ropes, that was the punch of an experienced professional, very impressive. His shape is impressive too. The second is also very close but Fury may have snuck that one, and it is sneaky, he's already clinching sloppy to try to maintain control. Francis is prioritising single shots, quick counters, it's very impressive, Fury's lack of combination punching that matters during normal ops is being exposed. In the third, we see the site of the sport's best fighter running away from an MMA guy and boxing novice after suffering a knockdown where he came absolutely square to throw a one-two, no amount of poor quality training can excuse this garbage, Francis looks a bit knackered in the fourth and this probably saves Fury who scrapes the fourth and the fifth. He is scraping them though, determined, inexplicably, to clinch and grapple, looking for single shots, just bad boxing done badly, though he closes the fifth strongly in fairness. So I have Fury re-taking control of the fight through six, leaving Francis with the razor-thin first and the KD in the third, but Fury inexplicably begins to let the fight slip again in the seventh. Twice he let himself be hit with trailing hands that were thrown without the cover of a jab, almost inexplicably bad. I have him going into the ninth needing both rounds to avoid disaster. He has his best round, probably, in the ninth and although it remains boring and underwhelming he clearly wins that one. Probably squeaks the tenth? Boring fight. Awful perfomrance. Wouldn't mind seeing Francis fight again. I have Fury winning by the narrowest of margins.
Emile Griffith v Jorge Fernandez III (welterweight title - Nevada's 5-point must in effect)
Round 1: 5-4 Griffith
Round 2: 5-4 Griffith
Round 3: 5-4 Fernandez
Round 4: 5-4 Griffith
Round 5: 5-4 Fernandez
Round 6: 5-5 Even
Round 7: 5-3 Griffith (scores a knockdown)
Round 8: 5-5 Even
Round 9: Griffith decks Fernandez with controversial low blow. After 5 minutes rest Fernandez stated he still could not continue. Due to Nevada's no-foul rule, Griffith was awarded the fight on a TKO.
Total through 8 completed rounds - 38-35 Griffith (actual scores: 38-35, 39-36 and 38-38 with Griffith leading)
Another tough fight rounding out their 3-fight series, as well as the most controversial. Griffith looked sharp here, especially when he was using the jab. His combos were fast and sharp. Fernandez, like most Argentines, was strong as an ox and he was a tremendous infighter. But getting to the inside posed a problem for him because he had no jab to speak of. This was where he was sorely lacking. But then again, at 5'5", he wasn't exactly a Willie Pep in there against the rangy Griffith. Still, he kept it close and showed plenty of heart which makes the 'KO' even more controversial. When Griffith landed the finishing blow, his back was to the camera. Back then there wasn't the benefit we have today of slo-mo replays from 3 different angles, so it's a bit of a judgement call. From the trajectory of Emile's punch as it landed, I believe it was low. However, Fernandez' corner knew the no-foul rule in Nevada and they knew their man had 5 minutes to dust himself off or face a stoppage loss and they chose to stay down. One can only surmise his pain was legit, which made the ending even more unfortunate for the South American, as he was only a handful of points behind. Tough fight and a tough break.
Soslan Asbarov UD10 Aleksei Papin
This is an outstanding win for Asbarov boxing in just his fifth pro fight after a pretty mixed amateur career - but aged 31 he is in a hurry. Clearly wins the first with a jab right-hand but he's often finishing that combo with another jab, and Papin isn't showing him much. Still, Asbarov is impressive, boxing out of a very deep stance, and protecting himself with the right whenever he oversteps. In the second he drops Papin with a gorgeous counter left after holding a pretty heavy Papin punch on his guard, Papin wasn't that hurt but he was very much down. He comes back fairly strong in fairness, but is three points down after two. Papin puts them together well in the third and fourth though, and feitns Papin out of position with a right hand to the body several times, taking advantage of his experience. Good rounds between two tough technicians. Asbarov takes to his bike for the first two minutes of the fifth, changing up the pattern, then counters well from the ropes, there are body-punches, this is a very good fight, very good. Fourth and fifth are close rounds. Winning the fifth is huge for Asbarov as he now goes into the back end of the fight with a huge advantage. There is a lot of needle in a very close, very aggresssive round during which they talk to each other often - Asbarov turns southpaw and I think Papin slips through the defining punch, an upperuct, to shade a close one. These rounds are very difficult to score though, it tends to be Papin scores two of the three hardest punches, but Asbarov out-touches Papin, with straight punches in threes or fours. So it's a shootout for me and Asbarov wins it 6-4 with a KD. The macho BS in the tenth is glorious, Papin pointing to the middle of the ring where he wants it, Asbarov pounding his chest as Papin thrashes him along the ropes. The tenth is the clearest round of the fight and Papin will be cursing himself that he didn't get there earlier. Great fight.
Colin Dunne v Billy Schwer (WBUghhh lightweight title)
Round 1: 10-10 Even
Round 2: 10-10 Even
Round 3: 10-9 Dunne
Round 4: 10-9 Schwer
Round 5: 10-9 Dunne
Round 6: 10-9 Dunne
Round 7: 10-9 Schwer
Round 8: 10-10 Even
Round 9: 10-9 Dunne
Round 10: 10-9 Schwer
Round 11: 10-9 Dunne
Round 12: 10-9 Schwer
Total: 116-115 Dunne (actual scores: 115-113 and 116-112 both for Dunne and a 116-114 for Schwer with Dunne winning on a split)
Man, what a cracking little contest. So close and both so evenly matched. In the 6th round I mused that with the proclivity Schwer was getting caught with that right hand of Dunne's, that he was in danger of losing his record of never being down. But he stood aloft the entire fight and gave as good as he got. Just a damn good fight.
Fury vs Ngannou
1. Fury 10-9
3. Ngannou 10-8
4. Ngannou 10-9
5. Fury: 10-9
6. Fury: 10-9
7. Ngannou 10-9
8. Ngannou 10-9
9. Fury 10-9
10. Fury 10-9
Final card: 95-95 (draw).
This was my card on the night. On reflection, I could (maybe should) have given Fury the 2nd and made the 4th even, which would have given Fury a 96-94 win but despite this, I felt virtually all the rounds Fury won he only shaded while maybe only two rounds were clear- and they were both for Francis (3 & 8). Even in the rounds Fury won, he was only pawing with the jab and clean, solid shots were quite rare, Francis was definitely landing heavier blows which (should be) worth more but in some rounds he did so little so it was difficult for me to award him parity- and there were on one or two rounds were neither seemed worthy of a '10' mark. So i'm satisfied in keeping the draw as my official card.
Jel, been meaning to give this one a look-see again for some time. The first time I saw it, it was a very grainy film that was horrible to watch. But I saw there was a remastered one out there and checked it out. Here we go...
Alfredo Escalera v Tyrone Everett (jr. lightweight title)
Round 1: 10-9 Everett
Round 2: 10-9 Everett
Round 3: 10-9 Everett
Round 4: 10-9 Everett
Round 5: 10-9 Escalera
Round 6: 10-9 Escalera
Round 7: 10-9 Everett
Round 8: 10-9 Everett
Round 9: 10-10 Even
Round 10: 10-9 Everett
Round 11: 10-10 Even
Round 12: 10-10 Even
Round 13: 10-9 Escalera
Round 14: 10-9 Everett
Round 15: 10-9 Escalera
Total: 146-142 Everett (actual scores: 148-146 Everett and scores of 145-143 and 146-143 both for Escalera on a split decision)
To begin, not a scintillating fight by any means and that had a lot to do with Everett. He simply controlled the ring to the point where he made Escalera so mechanical looking in there that the champ was just walking towards him throwing one punch at a time. I thought Ty looked fantastic in there, although the tactic didn't quite make it a barn-burner. Knowing the history on this fight, I really tried to see any sliver of honesty on this decision. I really tried to give a benefit of the doubt to Escalera for anything but still found him wanting. No way any sane/honest judge could give this to Escalera. It's noteworthy on a quote from Blinky Palermo on this decision. "Lou Tress could be bought for a cup of coffee." Hmmmmmmm!
One more thing. I know I've said it before, but these announcers calling the decision really get me. They were decades behind Jimmy Lennon, Sr. who would keep the crowd on the edge of their seat. The ring announcer in this case was Ed Derian who has a split decision in his hands and what does he do? He announces the first 2 cards for Escalera. Man, Ed, you really had the crowd on the edge of their seats with that one.
Emile Griffith v Luis Rodriguez II (California scoring system)
Round 1: LR
Round 2: Griffith
Round 3: Even
Round 4: Even
Round 5: LR
Round 6: LR
Round 7: Even
Round 8: LR
Round 9: LR
Round 10: LR
Round 11: Griffith
Round 12: Griffith
Round 13: LR
Round 14: LR
Round 15: Griffith
Total: 8-4 Rodriguez (actual scores: 8-5, 8-6 and 9-5 all for Rodriguez)
Man, I gotta tell you guys, every round of this bout was so close. Angelo Dundee had schooled Rodriguez to flurry at the end of the round. Now ordinarily, this tactic doesn't bother me too much. But in so many rounds of this fight they had fought such an even round that it was enough to tip the scales for the Cuban. I was so glued to the subtle shifts in every round that the fight was over before I knew it. This was the last fight I needed to score to finish their 4 bout series and I scored every one for Rodriguez. I'm obviously more impressed with Rodriguez' non-stop punching. Griffith was the harder puncher of their series but I have always been impressed with Rodriguez' slathering body punching. Not super exciting but a pleasure to watch two tacticians of this calibre at work.
I should mention Jimmy Lennon announcing the score at the end. Again, as I've said before, Lennon announced the score and it wasn't until he said right at the end, "the new welterweight champion..." that anyone knew who won. And this was 1963. 20 years later Ed Derian and Chuck Hull were still giving away the answer with the first score.
I always liked when Jimmy introduced a fighter’s weight, ‘coming in at a trim and ready 145 pounds’ — such a nice touch.
I’ve met Jimmy Lennon Jr a few times and he is indeed classy. Talked boxing with him and chatted about what a big fan I have always been of his father and he was very engaging and no air of ‘big-time’ about him at all.
I watched it again last night and had it for Fury 95-94 identical to Krebs
Ngannou 3 10-8, 7,8, 10
Fury edged it but it wasnt pretty, I find the robbery cries to be from MMA fans and casuals who either didnt actually score the fight or dont know how to score a fight
I felt 2, 4 and 10 were the hardest rounds to score but many rounds were close, the judges only agreed on 5 of the 10 rounds opening the door for lots of possibilities in scoring
All things considered I was very impressed with Ngannou
He always seemed as much a part of the production and experience of a big fight without ever imposing himself on the situation, a rare gift and an important one. Both of them.
I always really liked Chuck Hull too, whose middle name is "Venerable" I believe.
Paul Banke KO 12 Ki Hoon Lee
@Flo_Raiden posted this one up here for comment and I'm glad he did, what a great fight. Banke was usually in good fights. THis was a defense of the WBC Superbantamweight title he'd won from Zaragoza, and it was held in the challenger's home country of South Korea.
Lee is very enthusiastic and brave to a fault. He is not a technician; no, not him. He gets hit and applies pressure, and shoves innumerable arm punches at you until you drown, that's the plan. Banke is in the seemingly unfamiliar role of boxer here to an extent, though only just.....his shots are crisper and more meanigful if not quite as plentiful, and they hit home more often. Banke isn't a true banger, though, and not really a boxer per se, so his job is to try to creat enough distance between himself and Lee to get in those crisp shots before Lee can set himself and then slide or roll under the return salvo. For the most part, he does a good job at this.
But Banke in his heart is as pugnacious as Lee, and won't back down from a fight. As a result, we get almost 12 full rounds of terrific phonebooth warfare here, and both deserve major plaudits.
I don't usually score rounds even, I just never cared for that myself. @scartissue is as good a judge as you'll see either here or at the actual fights, and he does it, so maybe I'm softening on that some. At any rate, I scored two rounds even here, which is basically unheard of for me. Often, there was just that little to choose between them.
For the most part I scored the early portions of the fight for Banke (in very general terms), and had him slightly in the lead after six. BY the eighth, Banke's right eye begins sewlling badly and by the ninth, it's tightly closed, allowing Lee a tide of success to ride. Lee gets the better of the eighth, but has a point deducted either for a headbutt or low blow (he was profuse with both).
Lee is then able to shove his tiring foe against the ropes in the ninth and tenth and works the champion over. Both are exhausted but working hard.
In the eleventh, Banke somehow finds the perfect straight left cross (southpaw after all) that finds Lee's chin and the challenger does a dance of dizziness before being put down hard with a follow-up flurry. The twelfth is almost predictable; the challenger's legs are simply gone now but wow is he brave, trying so hard to stay upright and somehow fight back. Banke zeroes in with the power shots however, and deposits him hard twice more before it's finally called off.
Beautiful fight. Highly recommend.
8. Even (9-9), point taken from Lee for something
11. Banke (10-8, hard knockdown at end of round)
12. Banke drops Lee twice and stops him
106-103 Banke at the time of the stoppage.
Sal, checked this out this morning with it glaring in my face after @Flo_Raiden recommending it. Awesome fight and awesome that you checked it out as well. We were so close in our scoring. Here we go:
Paul Banke v Ki Joon Lee (super bantamweight title)
Round 1: 10-9 Lee
Round 2: 10-9 Banke
Round 3: 10-9 Banke
Round 4: 10-10 Even
Round 5: 10-9 Lee
Round 6: 10-9 Banke
Round 7: 10-9 Banke
Round 8: 9-9 Even (Lee's round but docked a point for use of the head)
Round 9: 10-9 Lee
Round 10: 10-9 Lee
Round 11: 10-8 Banke (scores a knockdown)
Round 12: Banke drops Lee twice and the bout is stopped
Total through 11 completed rounds: 105-103 Banke (actual scores: 105-103 Banke, 105-104 Lee and 103-103 with the bout even after 11)
Just a tremendous fight, with the strong-as-an-ox Korean working the body and Banke head-hunting. Y'now, Lee never ducked once in this fight, which really made every shot Banke threw so profound and jarring to the viewer. I'm surprised that the ref didn't take Lee more to task for his head use, other than the one point. There were times I saw him come in like a torpedo and other times against the ropes seeing him use the head like a crowbar to maneuver Banke into punching position. I think anywhere else he would have been DQ'd, but it is what it is. I will bring up one point that might make me sound like a glass-half-empty type of guy - especially after seeing such a fantastic fight - but it should be noted that Lee really didn't deserve a title fight. He had only about a dozen fights to his credit. Years ago if you held an OPBF title, one could see a title fight in their future. In this case he not only didn't hold that title, but he wasn't even the Korean champ, only managing a 10 round draw for that title. But clearly there was some money coming out of the Orient to induce the champ to defend his title and none of those alphabet organizations who claim they're into ring safety would object to this. OK, that's me on my soapbox for the day. Again, great fight, Sal and Flo.
Watch..or better yet..don't watch...
I had it 30-27, Tucker
Got it in my head today to check out a little Jhonny Gonzalez. Here are his fights with Jorge Arce and Mark Johnson. But let me preface these fights by saying they were the last fights in the respective careers of Arce and Johnson...which may take a little luster off of the wins.
Jhonny Gonzalez v Jorge Arce (featherweight title)
Round 1: 10-10 Even
Round 2: 10-9 JG
Round 3: 10-8 JG (scores a knockdown)
Round 4: 10-9 JG
Round 5: 10-8 JG (scores a knockdown)
Round 6: 10-9 JG
Round 7: 10-9 JG
Round 8: 10-9 JG
Round 9: 10-8 JG (scores a knockdown)
Round 10: 10-9 JG
Round 11: The ref sees enough and stops the fight
Total through 10 completed rounds: 100-88 Gonzalez (actual scores: 99-87, 99-87 and 97-89 all for Gonzalez)
It was hard watching this as I always enjoyed an Arce fight, but at this stage of his career he was fighting at 126 and although he looked good he looked a bit bulky and combined with age he just couldn't get a shot off or put any kind of attack or combos together. His left eye was cut and he had his obligatory cut on the bridge of his nose. Jorge kept the chatter going throughout the fight and it would have been nice to see him put that energy towards the fight, but he just couldn't pull the trigger.
Jhonny Gonzalez v Mark 'Too Sharp' Johnson (non-title as Johnson came in 1.5 pounds over the featherweight limit)
Round 1: 10-10 Even
Round 2: 10-9 JG
Round 3: 10-9 JG
Round 4: 10-8 JG (scores a knockdown)
Round 5: 10-9 JG
Round 6: 10-9 JG
Round 7: 10-9 JG
Round 8: Gonzalez drops Johnson who is counted out
Total through 7 completed rounds: 70-63 Gonzalez (actual scores not known)
Strictly a payday for Johnson as he said adios to the sport. One could see Gonzalez zeroing in with that lead right on the southpaw Johnson who likely could have risen in the 8th but clocked out on his own. After watching two Gonzalez fights I can say emphatically that there is nothing overly special that he does and the two fighters he fought were at the end of their tether. But taking nothing from him, he got the job done.