the what fights did you watch today\scorecard thread.

I needed to see something special tonight, so I dialed up this one. Hello boxing my old friend.

Muhammad Ali (c) vs. Joe Frazier, scheduled for 15 rounds for the undisputed heavyweight championship of the world at Araneta Coliseum in Quezon City, Philippines, on Oct. 1, 1975. You might know it as the Thrilla in Manilla.

Ali is 48-2, making the fourth defense of his second reign after winning the title off George Foreman. This is his fourth defense of 1975 (and it’s barely October) after wins over Chuck Wepner, Ron Lyle and Joe Bugner. He weighs 224 1/2 and will make about $9M.

Frazier is 32-2 and is coming off stoppages of Jerry Quarry and Jimmy Ellis since losing the rematch with Ali (a couple of fights after losing his title to Foreman). He scales 215 1/2 and will take home about $5M.

For reasons obscure, the weigh-in actually took place five days before the fight. It is held mid-morning Philippines time to accommodate the closed circuit time for the U.S. with a crowd of 28,000 on hand. The bout will be awarded Fight of the Year by The Ring.

Scoring is on the five-point must system. Here we go:

1. Ali 5-4: No dancing from Ali, who comes out flat-footed meaning business. He drills Joe with right leads. Frazier is not smoking, moving steadily forward but unable to close the gap as he misses badly with some hoods. Ali wobbles him late and opens up.

2. Ali 5-4: Muhammad isn’t jabbing, measuring instead with his left extended, and lands half a dozen or more jolting right leads. Joe does some decent body work and lands one left hook to the head.

3. Frazier 5-4 (c): Ali spends a lot of the round covering up on the ropes. He blocks a lot of Joe’s assault but enough gets through to edge the round. Muhammad opens up late and lands cleanly.

4. Ali 5-4: Muhammad fights in spurts and blisters Frazier with combinations. Joe doesn’t do as much work and lands a few low blows. (One can make a good argument that Joe should have had a point deducted for low punches at some point.)

5. Frazier 5-4: His bet round so far and he lands several solid hooks to the head. Ali mostly covers up on the ropes and in the corner.

6. Frazier 5-4: Big round for Joe, who seems to have taken command as he lands repeatedly with powerful hooks after hurting Ali early with one.

7. Ali 5-4: Muhammad shifts gears, getting on his toes to stick and move to break up Frazier’s momentum. Joe can’t get close enough to get off.

8. Ali 5-4 (c): Ali does major damage early with combinations that are laser-guided for accuracy, but slows down and Joe claws his way back into it with his body work. Not quite enough for me as I had Muhammad edging this one.

9. Frazier 5-4: Not so fast my friend. Ali moves again but this time Joe walks him down and rakes his body with a fierce attack.

10. Ali 5-4: Muhammad lands the cleaner and more effective blows as he plants his feet and pot-shots. Frazier seems to start slowing down and isn’t as effective even when Ali sets up on the ropes.

11. Ali 5-4: The champion controls the distance and lands some vicious combinations and clean single shots. Frazier does some gritty body work for about 45 seconds when he corners Ali, but can’t sustain it.

12. Ali 5-4: Joe’s left eye is closing, the damage taking its toll. More of the same as Ali comes through with a series of hard, clean blows. Frazier is flailing and fading.

13: Ali 5-3: Only Joe’s willpower got him through this. Muhammad knocks his mouthpiece out with a right and wobbles him twice, battering him from pillar to post. This is target practice.

14: Ali 5-4: Slower round, but when Ali opens up it’s more of the same. At this point, Muhammad is in complete command and handing out a beating.

Frazier’s corner stops it between rounds as he can’t see. Eddie Futch tells him, ‘No one will forget what you did here today.’ We’re still talking about it, so Eddie was right.

This is as good as it gets.

My card: 66-59 Ali. Official cards all favor Muhammad: 66-60, 66-62, 67-62. The Associated Press had it even at 63 apiece, which I just don’t see.

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Fighting Harada vs Eder Jofre II(Bantamweight title bout FOTY)
Round 1: Jofre 10-9
Round 2: Jofre 20-18
Round 3: draw 30-28
Round 4: draw 40-38
Round 5: Harada 49-48
Round 6: Harada 58-58
Round 7: Jofre 68-67
Round 8: draw 78-77
Round 9: draw 88-87
Round 10: Jofre 98-96
Round 11: Harada 107-106
Round 12: draw 117-116
Round 13: draw 127-126
Round 14: Harada 136-136
Round 15: Harada 144-146
While I liked the first fight better with how it's less sloppier and has more skill sharing in it,this fight was a war still,I do admit I give Harada a round here at round 13 prob,it could be a round for Jofre but it's close enough to make it a draw,both mens can win this way closer than the first fight,but in my judging, Harada would retain his title to fight against Lionel Rose,but I wonder what will happen if Jofre claims it back and fought Lionel Rose instead.

 

Someone here recently mentioned this fight and how he felt it was a bad decision, so i penciled it in. For the life of me I can't find the post or who wrote it. But all I have to hear about is controversy and I need to see it and score it. Strangely, I can only find one post on this fight and that was from former poster sweet scientist from about 13 years back. I think we all need to see this again. It's worth our attention.

Julio Cesar Vasquez v Pernell Whitaker (jr. middleweight title)

Round 1: 10-9 Whitaker
Round 2: 10-10 Even
Round 3: 10-9 Whitaker
Round 4: 10-8 Vasquez (scores a knockdown)
Round 5: 10-9 Vasquez
Round 6: 10-10 Even
Round 7: 10-9 Vasquez
Round 8: 10-9 Whitaker
Round 9: 9-9 Even (Vasquez' round but docked a point for a rabbit punch)
Round 10: 10-9 Vasquez
Round 11: 10-8 Whitaker (Vasquez docked another point for a rabbit punch)
Round 12: 10-9 Vasquez

Total: 114-113 Vasquez (actual scores: 118-110, 116-110 and a whopping 118-107 all for Whitaker)

Oh, man, where do I start? I'm sure the cards given to the officials simply said 'Whitaker - red corner, Opponent - blue corner' because I doubt anything mattered to these guys what Vasquez was going to do. I'm never a conspiracy theorist, but I caught something in the 7th round and I'm glad the HBO team heard it too. The ref was Tony Orlando, not Whitaker's usual ref Al Rothenburg, who was his best buddy. But Orlando says to Whitaker within reach of the mic, "If he hits you low I'm going to take a point, so don't retaliate." Nice coming from the "impartial" official. He eventually takes 2 points from Vasquez for rabbit punches. To me it just felt like he was laying in the weeds from the 7th on to deduct anything. Lampley probably said it best as he was looking at those punch stats by saying its up to the judge to decide if you're going to score by less punches and more accuracy or the other fighter with more hustle but less accuracy. I felt it was a very close fight and would have been happy with a draw, but the deck was stacked IMO for Whitaker.

 

Dawn would have been a better ref than Tony Orlando.

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In all sports for all time (and I conveyed this to my boxers when I coached) I believe this:

Players play

Coaches coach

Referees referee

Referees shouldn’t coach (giving an instruction like you mentioned here or telling someone how to avoid a holding call in football or boxing). They should officiate. If someone lands a low blow, you warn them. It’s fair to tell them one more and you’re going to deduct a point (I consider that officiating, not coaching). But to say ‘dont’ do this if that happens’ or ‘I’ll allow it if you do it this way’ is coaching. Nope.

Coaches shouldn’t officiate either, nor players. Bringing a low blow or illegal tactic to the attention of an official is fair game as long as it’s not lobbying constantly or begging for a call until you get one. Telling the official how to referee a fight (or game or whatever) is out of bounds.

Likewise, the player (boxer in this case) shouldn’t be trying to influence the ref. Begging for a call is just allowing the other guy’s tactics to get in your head — we’ve all seen someone who got in a state during a fight where he’d rather get a point deduction or warning for his opponent than he would get a knockdown by his own fisticuffs. That’s not how winning is done.

 

Vilomar Fernandez vs Howard Davis Jr

1 Fernandez
2 Fernandez 10-8 Knockdown
3 Fernandez
4 Fernandez
5 Davis
6 Fernandez
7 Fernandez
8 Davis
9 Davis
10 Fernandez
11 Davis
12 Fernandez

116-111 Fernandez

I heard this was a bad decision and i think it was.

Fernandez who is normally a counter puncher/mover was the aggressor throughout the whole fight landed the harder more effective/harder punches that consistently hurt/buzzed Davis.

Davis for me got overwhelmed in the 1st half of the fight and whilst he did better in the 2nd half of the fight standing his ground more. His punches were just not that effective and for me Fernandez was always landing the more effective punches combined with his effective aggression i thought he was a clear winner.

 

I want to revisit this sometime. Watched it when it aired back in the day and thought Vilomar deserved a decision (maybe not as wide as you have it, but I wasn’t scoring and was in my relative infancy of understanding the nuances of scoring).

Fernandez could be a handful for anyone. Tough out and could frustrate the bejeezus out of anyone.

 

I saw this fight mentioned on another thread and thought I would check it out.

Rogers Mtagwa v Tomas Villa

Round 1: 10-9 Mtagwa
Round 2: 10-9 Villa
Round 3: 10-9 Villa
Round 4: 10-9 Mtagwa
Round 5: 10-9 Villa
Round 6: 10-10 Even
Round 7: 10-10 Even
Round 8: 10-9 Mtagwa
Round 9: 10-8 Villa (scores a knockdown)
Round 10: Mtagwa drops Villa 3 times and the fight is stopped

Total through 9 completed rounds: 87-85 Villa (scores not known)

A couple of things to say here first. This bout was fought by 2 fighters that had all science removed from their knowledge. Just picture two 4- round clubfighters told, "Hey guys, you'll be fighting the main event tonight." And that's what we got here. 2 guys bereft of fundamentals that swung from the fences for 10 rounds. Now that's not a bad thing if you just want to see a donnybrook, but I actually do enjoy seeing a bit of boxing know-how involved. Still, I'm not going to knock it but if I was a compassionate cornerman I would be telling both these fighters that its time for another profession or that the word 'duck' also means something more than water fowl. An absolute crazy fight, guys.

 

Scar i have to say i disagree with your scorecard it was a competitive fight but a clear win for Whitaker, i just don't think you're a fan of Whitaker's style which is fine as he's not for everyone but i have to point out some rounds that i disagree with if you don't mind.

You scored 2nd round even but Whitaker landed almost 50 percent of his punches, and had the two most eye catching punches of the round the left uppercut and a straight left lead in the final portions of the round.

You scored the 5th round for Vasquez but Vasquez did nothing of note in that round except eat jabs, infact i thought it was a clear cut round and a good comeback round for Whitaker after having a bad 4th round.

You scored the 10th round for Vasquez but Whitaker was far more accurate in the round when they exchanged punches.

You scored the 12th round for Vasquez which i can understand as Whitaker taunted a bit too much which may put off some people. But apart from the solid left hand Vasquez landed in the opening seconds of the round i didn't see him do anything else of note in the round. Vasquez was looked tired missing all his punches as Whitaker landed a solid left hand in the middle of the round and a few combinations and looked totally comfortable outside of the first 10 seconds of the round.

Whilst the 1st point deduction might of been a little harsh i still think he should've had atleast a point deduction in the fight Vasquez did hit Whitaker with alot of rabbit punches in the fight.

Overall Whitaker stood in the pocket for the most part and clearly out jabbed his opponent and was far more accurate with his punches. Yes the fight was competitive throughout but it was one of the those competitive fights where i didn't see Vasquez win many clear rounds.

I thought it was a pretty clear cut win for Whitaker i don't see Vasquez winning anymore than 4 rounds 5 at a stretch but that's the absolute maximum. I personally don't see how you can only have Whitaker winning 4 rounds.

Pernell Whitaker vs Julio Cesar Vasquez

1 Whitaker
2 Whitaker
3 Whitaker
4 Vasquez 10-8
5 Whitaker
6 Whitaker
7 Vasquez
8 Whitaker
9 9-9 point deduction for Vasquez but he won the round.
10 Whitaker
11 Whitaker 10-8 round another point deduction.
12 Whitaker

116-109 Whitaker

 

D, I'm cool with all of this. This is what this thread was all about. Not just posting scores but to discuss/disagree/question them. You are right on your point that I am no fan of Whitaker's style, but I never let preferences or opinions get in the way of scoring a fight. He was never my cup of tea but a case in point on how I score would be his bout with Julio Cesar Chavez. I was a big JCC supporter, yet, I probably had it more lopsided than most for Whitaker (I think I had it 118-113). Partiality never creeps into my scores, however, substance does. And by that I mean I just felt Vasquez' shots had the kind of 'Oomph' on them to lean towards the Argentine. When i was an amateur official we scored by punches scored. Whether it was a jab or a haymaker, it was one scoring point. The pros allowed one to be more liberal with their assessments regarding power shots. Your mention of the 12th round is interesting because even the HBO team brought up the fact that it was "a typical Whitaker 12th round where all he did was coast" (or something to that effect). I would have been more direct and said Pea did next to nothing. Yet, you scored it for Whitaker. So i think there is room to say that it was a difficult fight to score on one's scoring choices. Incidentally, Harold Lederman scored it 114-111 for Whitaker and he and I agreed on 8 of the 12 rounds for what it's worth. I won't argue with Whitaker winning, I just don't feel it was a lopsided fight, and again, I would have been good with a draw.

 

That's fine Scar I appreciate you for replying and giving your thoughts I wasn't trying to put you on the spot or anything. Me personally I thought it was a competitive fight but one of those competitive fights that Whitaker clearly won by a few points.

The Rivera fight now that is a different story when I watched that a few years ago I thought that was very close and I wasn't exactly sure if Whitaker had won it. I will probably revisit that fight soon and post a scorecard.

 

No problem, D. The Rivera fights are good to test one's scoring. If you're going to hit it, hit both. They both have a bit of controversy with them. I won't post my scores on them, so you can see them unfettered by other's opinions.

 

The debate inspired me to take 3 minutes of my work break to watch the 12th round.

I had it for Whitaker, narrowly, the tipping point being his defense in making JCV miss so often and so badly. I also thought he had a few stiff jabs and a couple of crisp combinations, whereas Vasquez didn’t land much of anything clean … what contact he made wasn’t really in the form of what I’d call effective punches. He looked tired and kind of pushed everything out there.

I think I remember thinking Pernell won when I saw it originally but didn’t score it as far as I can recall.

 

Pat, I re-checked this out about 2 years ago. Awesome seeing the Thrilla

Muhammad Ali v Joe Frazier III (heavyweight title) 5 point must system in effect

Round 1: 5-4 Ali
Round 2: 5-5 Even
Round 3: 5-4 Frazier
Round 4: 5-4 Ali
Round 5: 5-4 Ali
Round 6: 5-4 Frazier
Round 7: 5-4 Ali
Round 8: 5-4 Frazier
Round 9: 5-4 Frazier
Round 10: 5-5 Even
Round 11: 5-4 Ali
Round 12: 5-4 Frazier
Round 13: 5-4 Ali
Round 14: 5-4 Ali
Round 15: Frazier's corner retires him just before the bell for 15

Total through 14 completed rounds: 65-63 Ali (actual scores: 66-62, 66-60 and 67-62 all for Ali)

Peering through a pair of impartial eyes rather the eyes of an Ali fan, which I was at the time, this fight was damn close. What made it closer in my eyes than say that of Don Dunphy is that Ali may have started a round well, but invariably ended up on the ropes where Frazier was at home. You can do that against a Foreman, but Frazier was more machine than human and would just pound you all day. I felt Joe would steal a round while Ali was dawdling on the ropes. That's in my view anyway. I probably didn't think that way in '75, but I gotta call them the way I see them. Good revisiting the Thrilla.

 

D, checked this out about a year ago. Had it a bit closer than you but I enjoyed the fight, nevertheless.

Howard Davis v Vilomar Fernandez (12 round eliminator)

Round 1: 10-9 Fernandez
Round 2: 10-8 Fernandez (scores a knockdown)
Round 3: 10-9 Fernandez
Round 4: 10-9 Fernandez
Round 5: 10-9 Davis
Round 6: 10-9 Fernandez
Round 7: 10-10 Even
Round 8: 10-9 Davis
Round 9: 10-9 Davis
Round 10: 10-9 Davis
Round 11: 10-9 Davis
Round 12: 10-9 Davis

Total: 114-114 Draw (actual scores: 114-113, 115-113 and 118-112 all for Davis)

Can't remember if I ever saw this back in the day but it was well worth seeing after hearing some chatter that Fernandez was robbed. Indeed, this was no rout as Fernandez went on the attack against the fleet-footed Davis and really controlled the first half of the fight before Davis got off his bike and started fighting back in the second half. For two fighters that really never overwhelmed the audience with excitement, it wasn't a bad fight at all.

 

I didn’t think Joe was really smoking in a lot of rounds. He kind of rested against Ali and while he got through at times, at others he find of flailed against Ali’s arms and such — and then Muhammad would spring back with a big flurry and land better stuff than Frazier had when he had Ali on the ropes.

Fights where one guy is more constant and the other is explosive in spurts are the hardest to score. Depends on which you like and value more. Paez-Dorsey I and II were a lot like that.