The wins of Larry Holmes vs Rocky Marciano

Go back to General, kid.

 

Go back to sleep old man. You need your eight hours.

 

I do, and I've had them, as you can well see by the way I'm running rings around you.

Parkinson's Ali hadn't fought for two years and had gotten his stool pushed in prior to that by Leon Spinks He barely threw a punch against Holmes. Joe Louis was on a six fight win streak and made Marciano work for the win. If you haven't watched and compared the two fighs then you should, before embarrassing yourself like this.

 

We ought to upvote him for comic relief.

 

Ali in his prime beats Joe Louis 10/10 times. I gave my reasoning for each pick except the Louis-Ali matchup. Why's that? Cuz it's a stupid matchup. Look at you breaking it all down. Both fighters were washed up but one of them was seriously ill. It doesn't take a genius to figure it out. Maybe I called it a draw out of respect or I just don't give a sh-it. But hey, you probably relish opportunities like this. You get to flex on people and show off your superlative knowledge of the pugilistic art. Great work.

 

Grow stronger in packs lol. If you had a problem with my picks, you could have told me directly. I would have respected that and explained myself. Regardless, I stand by my picks. Why couldn't Mercer beat Walcott? Did Walcott have a great chin? Nope. Most decent heavyweights Walcott faced weighed around 190 lbs. Joe Louis weighed 213 when he stopped Walcott but that's an old, out of shape Louis. Walcott weighed 196 when he fought Marciano. Some people on this forum believe Walcott was in his prime when he fought Marciano. I personally think he was past his prime but still good enough to outbox Marciano.Walcott suffered a one punch KO against Marciano, twice. The second one coming in the very first round. If this is a prime Walcott, he was KO'd by someone who weighed 184 lbs and had a 68" reach. Ray Mercer weighed 228 lbs and had a 77" reach. Mercer couldn't knockout Holmes. Holmes weighed 40 lbs more than Walcott and he is also one of the most durable heavyweights of all time. Mercer had one punch KO power and a granite chin. A classic slugger. Mercer had better handspeed than Marciano. Mercer also had a jab. He won't lean to his side and lead with looping punches the way Marciano did. Mercer worked behind his jab. You can watch the first round of Mercer-Holmes where Mercer wobbled Holmes with a jab. Holmes beat Mercer by tiring him out. He laid on the ropes, kept his jab in Mercer's face. When Mercer tried to get close, Holmes countered with his right. It was a good strategy but that isn't how Walcott fights. Walcott moves around and sets traps. He does lose composure and exchanges recklessly at times. Marciano was short, he had to get close to Walcott and he wasn't a difficult target to hit. It's easier to counter Marciano since he's slow, he telegraphs his punches and he has really short arms. Mercer was no technical wonder but at least he could jab. And he had one powerful jab. Mercer also had good handspeed, relentless pressure and high output. Walcott isn't hurting Mercer and he isn't taking Mercer's best shot. Mercer will put pressure on Walcott and force him to brawl. Mercer will back him up the way Louis did. Except this is an older and slower Walcott. Marciano didn't jab and when he got close, Walcott would clinch and hold him. It's a lot harder to do that against someone who jabs his way in. Walcott will still land counters because Mercer didn't have great defense but he isn't hurting Mercer. If they fight on the inside, Walcott will get bullied. Mercer won't respect Walcott's power. Walcott was one of the bigger heavyweights in his day so I'm sure his opponents respected his power to an extent. In this matchup he's giving away 32 lbs. Walcott didn't have a sturdy chin and he wasn't a big puncher. This is in his day when heavyweights weighed around 190 lbs. Mercer was a big puncher and had a granite chin fighting heavyweights that weighed around 230 lbs. Lennox Lewis was 247 lbs when he fought Mercer and he couldn't even stun Mercer. Mercer stops Walcott in the early rounds.

"Charles wasn't very durable." I never said Charles wasn't durable. I guess it's all the same to you. Charles went 15 against Marciano. He was also KO'd by Walcott with one punch. Walcott wasn't a big puncher. How many good heavyweights did he knock out? Name fighters who were durable. Charles had a decent chin, he wasn't very durable. And you have to be VERY durable to take Shavers best shot. Charles weighed 185 in the first fight against Marciano. Marciano weighed 187. Charles took Marciano's best shots and went 15 rounds. Shavers weighed 211 and Holmes weighed 210. Shavers dropped Holmes with a single right hand. Charles wouldn't get up from that. It has nothing to do with heart. Shavers knocked out big heavyweights that weighed over 220 lbs. Shavers would have a 6" inch reach advantage and 26 lbs over Charles. He was bigger, stronger, and less washed up. Shavers was a bigger puncher than Marciano. Holmes had a great jab to keep Shavers at bay. Charles didn't fight that way. Charles was more of a counter-puncher. You pointed to the Satterfield fight. You can see Charles isn't as agile as he used to be, not even close. Satterfield is throwing haymakers and he was landing plenty on Charles and Charles appeared hurt in the first round. As I said before, Charles had a decent chin. He didn't go down every time he got hit with a clean shot. And Satterfield can't be compared to Shavers, LHW vs HW. Satterfield was a glass-canon. So was Shavers, but against heavyweights. Satterfield lasted 2 rounds, Shavers will last much longer. Charles was a lot more hittable at this point in his career. Marciano landed plenty of sloppy punches on Charles. Compare Charles from Marciano fight to Louis fight. If they are the same to you, I'll change my pick. Now, how do you beat Shavers? You keep your jab in his face and you keep moving. Holmes did it perfectly because he had one of the best jabs ever and great reflexes to avoid the overhand counter. If you watch the round where Shavers dropped Holmes, you'll see that Shavers set him up. He was throwing right hands to Holmes body throughout the round. Eventually, Shavers threw a jab and lowered his right hand at the same time. It looked like he was going to the body but he threw an overhand right instead. Holmes saw the low right hand and tried to counter with a rear uppercut as Shavers came in but he ended up on the canvas instead. Just to show you that Shavers was not a complete bum. He was a decent boxer with exceptional power. It's not like I picked Shavers to KO a prime Charles. Charles will get hit with that right hand and he won't recover imo. He didn't have a jab like Holmes, he didn't move like Holmes, and he wasn't elusive enough (in '54). And more importantly, he was too small. Charles was getting hit a lot by Marciano. And let's not act like Marciano was some offensive genius. He was slow and predictable. I also don't think Charles will be able to fight on the inside since Shavers can simply tie him up being the stronger fighter. Shavers had a decent jab, he went to the body, and he was physically strong. He isn't getting KO'd by a washed up Charles. I think Shavers stops Charles in the middle rounds.

 

There’s is a lot wrong with this such as Marciano was slow and predictable. Many of his opponents would disagree. Def awkward which worked to his advantage. In regards to Charles Shavers Maybe watch Quarry Shavers. To much emphasis in this forum is put on weight as if stamina, skill, power, speed, corner, style and footwork don’t come to play. That being said I like some of your breakdown I just don’t agree with it. Rocky slowed down come the Archie fight but watch Louis and Layne fights and that is not a slow fighter. Not fast either but he’s def faster then some of today’s giants and he was no easy target

 

He allowed a fighter with 68" reach to KO him. How do you know Marciano hit harder than Mercer? Mercer was 40 lbs heavier.

Walcott was 6'0 feet tall (average) and weighed 195-200 (above-average) at his best (1946-1951). I looked at all the fighters who were ranked at the time. Here's where they all fall:

Walcott was bigger than: Marciano, Charles, Bivins, Maxim, LaStarza, Henry, Sheppard , Muscato, Agramonte, Payne, Kahut , Valentino, Woodcok. Only Maxim was taller (1") but had a 3" shorter reach.

Walcott weighed the same as: Ray, Savold, Mauriello, Layne, Oma. Ray was 2" taller. Layne and Savold were 1" taller. Mauriello and Oma were 1" shorter.

Walcott was smaller than: Murray, Baker, Beshore, Thompson, Baksi. Murray was 3" taller. Baker was 2" taller. Baksi was 1" taller. Beshore and Thompson were 3" shorter.

Walcott became a top contender in 1946 when he beat Bivins. He had 23 more fights until he retired. He was the smaller man in 7 of those fights. Twice against Joe Louis who was out of shape. Elmer Ray outweighed him by 2 pounds in their rematch. The other 4 times was against unranked contenders- Al Blake, Olle Tandberg, Johnny Shkor, Hein Ten Hoff. I wouldn't call Walcott average sized. He was the bigger man in most of his major fights- Marciano, Charles, Maxim, Bivins, Layne, Oma, Ray I.

"Dude. That "someone" is Rocky ****ing Marciano, One of the best punchers in history". What does this have to do with my argument? Marciano might be one of the best punchers in history but he weighed 184 lbs. Marciano had a 9" shorter reach than Mercer and he was able to get to Walcott. Rocky wasn't particularly clever, wasn't that fast but he still got him. Mercer was a big puncher and he could stop Walcott too. Walcott would be at a significant size disadvantage.

"Marciano hits harder than Mercer despite Mercer weighing more." This is pure delusion. Mercer weighed 40 lbs more than Marciano. How did Marciano punch harder than Mercer? Use common sense here. Was Joe Louis a bigger puncher than Lennox Lewis now?

Was Ruben Olivares a bigger puncher than Salvador Sanchez? A great 118 lbs puncher and a very good 126 lbs puncher. There's an 8 lbs gap between the two. Was Pipino Cuevas a bigger puncher than Marvin Hagler? 13 lbs difference. Why is different with Marciano? What's so special about him? What if I said Julian Jackson hit harder than Rocky Marciano? Jackson at 160 and Rocky at 184. Say Jackson was 164 on fight night, not too unreasonable. That makes it a 20 lbs difference. Jackson hits harder than Marciano despite Marciano weighing more.

Here's some facts:

It took Marciano 8 rounds to drop a washed up Joe Louis. Did Louis have a great chin? Not at all. He was dropped many times by mediocre fighters in his prime. Marciano fought a 37 year old Louis.

Marciano went 15 rounds against Charles, a washed up Charles. It took Marciano 13 rounds to stop Walcott. Walcott and Charles weren't even that big.

Marciano struggled to stop Don Cockell who was 16 lbs heavier (205). Cockell had been KO'd 6 times before. The last one being to a 162 lbs fighter named Randy Turpin.

Marciano stopped Moore in the 9th round. Charles and Moore were natural light heavyweights.

Marciano couldn't KO a washed up Lee Savold. Savold was KO'd by the ghost of Joe Louis in his previous fight in the 6th round. Marciano couldn't even drop him, Savold retired after 6. Savold had been stopped 11 times in his career.

Most of Marciano's knockouts were against cans. Others being against old fighters- Moore, Charles, Walcott, Louis. Were any of these fighters known for possessing sturdy chins? None of them were. Charles showed a decent chin. Walcott, Louis, and Moore had mediocre chins. Louis recovered well from the knockdowns but he wasn't hard to drop. What makes Marciano one of the best punchers of all time?

Marciano was a great puncher for his weight. You can't compare him to fighters like Mercer, Morrison, or Tua. They weren't as great as Marciano but they were bigger than him and hit harder than him.

 

Mercer Morrison and Tua don’t belong in the same sentence as Marciano. Once again to much emphasis on weight is on this forum. Men actually trained down in weight then as opposed to today they train up. Marciano’s Walk around weight was 210. If fighters of the 50s trained as they do today they would weigh significantly more. Even then I take a 188 pound Marciano over most. He was freakishly strong for his size and had possibly the best stamina of any. The only knock on Marciano was the competition but they were the best of the time and they’re actually rather young when compared to the old men who fight today. AJs opponents on average are like five or six years older then Marciano’s.

 

I'd bet on a 1981 Cooney to beat everyone on Marciano's CV. Not even debatable.

 

I do believe he was slow and predictable. For a fighter who is 5'10 and 185 lbs, he was kinda slow. Joe Louis was beyond washed up and he was able to avoid a lot of Marciano's punches. Rocky leaned to his right and often led with overhand rights. He'd miss and be off-balance at times. He wasn't a compact puncher. When he opened up, his punches were wide and telegraphed. Doesn't mean he missed everything. He punched much better when he got inside (obviously). Joe Louis held his own when the two fought on the inside. Marciano was relentless and he had a great chin. I believe Joe Frazier and Floyd Patterson were better fighters than Marciano. Marciano didn't have great footwork and he had average defence. He wasn't very difficult to hit. He traded with Ezzard Charles throughout the fight. That favours Marciano since he has a chin and punching power but it was no display of elusiveness. He was getting tagged by Walcott the entire fight. He was throwing haymakers at Archie in their fight and getting countered. Rocky did slow down by the time he fought Moore but Moore was 7 years older than Marciano and had 128 more fights. Marciano wasn't a clean puncher but he punched often. He always kept a high output in his fights. He was a pretty good in-fighter who won fights with his workrate. I've seen people try to sell Dempsey and Marciano as boxing geniuses. Sometimes things are just what they seem to be and that's all there is to it. Marciano was a good fighter with a great chin and heart. He won fights with pure grit/determination and a high workrate that was difficult to match. I don't believe he was some highly skilled technician.

If we're using Shavers-Quarry, can we also use Charles-Holmann? Charles fought Holmann 10 months after the first Marciano fight. Charles was also outboxed by Nino Valdes 10 months before Marciano-Charles 1. Valdes weighed the same as Shavers and had similar reach. Holmann was also a tall heavyweight who KO'd Charles but he wasn't a big puncher. Shavers fought Quarry 6 years before he fought Holmes the second time. Quarry was a good puncher at heavyweight and had damn quick hands. Shavers took a ton of punches before he went down in that fight. Charles never hit as hard as Quarry. Quarry caught a somewhat inexperienced Shavers with a perfect counter. Quarry had been in there with some of the best heavyweights of his era. Shavers showed no composure in his fight against Quarry. Shavers did get better over time. He was at his best around 76-78 I believe. He showed a pretty good chin when he fought Ron Lyle. Shavers would beat Charles if Charles traded punches the way he did against Rocky. Shavers didn't have a great gas tank but he could go 15 if he fought at his pace. You gas Shavers out by making him punch himself out. I don't see Charles doing that. Charles wasn't quick enough or elusive enough to do what Holmes did (in 1954). If this was the Charles that fought Louis, I'd pick him because of his speed and agility. But I don't think Charles could stay away from Shaver right. It'll be a stoppage. Shavers was hands down a bigger puncher than anyone Charles fought.

 

Why does Marciano's walk around weight matter? Didn't they have same day weigh-ins back then? If he weighs 184 on the day of the fight, I doubt he's gonna rehydrate to 210. And what do you mean today's fighters train up in weight? Fighters still start camp at high weight and drop down as they get closer to fight night. I don't think anyone goes up in weight training for a fight lol. Take their weights for what they are. Marciano weighed 184 lbs when he fought Walcott. Mercer weighed 228 when he fought Holmes. 42 lbs difference. He does not punch as hard as Mercer or Tua. How is that even possible? Of course weight doesn't matter. Weight classes were created so we could have more champions. Right? "Mercer Morrison and Tua don’t belong in the same sentence as Marciano." This is ridiculous. Earnie Shavers is hailed as the greatest puncher that ever lived by many people. How great a fighter was he? What does power have to do with greatness? You can be a great puncher and still be a mediocre fighter (David Tua, Gerry Cooney, Buddy Baer, Tommy Gomez, Firpo etc.) David Tua/Ray Mercer hit harder than Marciano and weight has everything to do with it. At least I can make an argument using weight. What is your argument? How does Marciano punch harder than Tua or Mercer?

Why compare ROCKY MARCIANO to Joshua? AJ has fought old fighters like Povetkin and Wladimir Klitchsko. But Povetkin had lost just once in his 13 year career (Wladimir). Povetkin had been a top 5 heavyweight for 10 years. Wladimir had one loss in the previous 13 years. He wasn't as washed up as Joe Louis. Or Ezzard Charles tbh. And he's a greater heavyweight than Walcott/Charles/Moore. Why are we comparing Rocky to AJ though? Marciano is supposed to be an all-time great, a top 5 heavyweight, right? Compare him to Ali, Louis, Foreman, Holmes, Lewis, Dempsey, Tyson etc.