The wins of Larry Holmes vs Rocky Marciano

No I am sure that you weren't, but I am playing with the idea of tactical matching to favor one side.

 

Randall Tex Cobb is not one of Holmes best wins. Cooney or Weaver were better. So was Smith. Holmes beat better overall men, but the way this is set up and the opponents are selected, I'd side with Rocky.

 

You're right. Force = Mass x Velocity

Marciano's weight= 184 lbs or 83.5 kg

Mercer's weight= 228 lbs or 103.4 kg

Mercer is 43 lbs heavier. His mass is 1.24x or 124% compared to Marciano.

I think Mercer and Morrison had faster hands than Marciano. Marciano wasn't fast. But let's say Marciano was faster. Let's assume Mercer and Marciano thew their best punch with good technique and leverage.

Say Marciano's punch velocity = 9 m/s

How much slower is Mercer? Let's say he's 10% slower. Mercer's punch velocity would be 8.2 m/s. Let's go with 8.

Marciano's punching force would be: 83.5 x 9 m/s = 751.5 N

Mercer's would be: 103.4 kg x 8 m/s = 827.2N. If we go with 7.5 m/s, F = 775.5 N. Still higher force generated than Marciano. If we assume Mercer had faster hands than Marciano. Let's say 9.5 m/s. 103.4 x 9.5 = 982.3 N.


But it's obviously not that simple. Here are a few studies determining punching power in boxers.

https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/39/10/710 This is a study from 2005. They used Seven Olympic boxers from 4 different weight classes- Flyweight, Super Welterweight, Middleweight, Heavyweight.

Here are some key points:

The average peak force was 2625 N for the middleweight boxer and 4345 N for the super heavyweights.

Punch force was higher for the heavier weight classes, primarily due to a higher effective mass of the punch.

Hand velocity did not seem to affect the severity of impact. This means the effective mass of the boxer’s punch is more important in increasing the severity of a blow. The effective mass from the punch was determined using conservation of momentum. The effective mass for all boxers analyzed averaged 2.9 kg. The effective mass for the flyweights was 2.3 kg, for the light welterweights 2.7 kg, for the middleweight 0.8 kg, and for the super heavyweights 5.0 kg.The only middleweight boxer evaluated had a smaller calculated effective mass due to the boxer flexing his wrist upon impact. In this case, the effective mass was approximately the mass of the middleweight boxer’s hand. Flexing the wrist decreases the effective mass behind the punch.

The boxers’ hand velocity was 9.14 m/s and had no significant correlation with the weight of the boxer, peak force, or severity of the punch.

Average punch velocity of a flyweight was 9.2 m/s. Average punch velocity of a super heavyweight was 8.3 m/s. Difference of 0.9 m/s. Weight difference of 88+ lbs.


https://isbweb.org/images/conf/2001/Longabstracts/PDF/0300_0399/0360.pdf

Study involving Wladimir and Vitali Klitschko. Both had punch velocity of 9.5 m/s. Both weighed around 240 lbs at the time. Pretty good handspeed for their size.


https://escholarship.org/content/qt19s6p5ct/qt19s6p5ct.pdf UCLA Study involving 65 professional fights, 154 professional fighters and almost 50,000 thrown punches.

SPEED

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Punches thrown in the fight (minimum of 100 punches)

DeVonte Allen (128 lbs)

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171
Jay Krupp (154 lbs)

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296
Jermell Charlo (154 lbs)

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132
Abraham Han (160 lbs)

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232
Rigoberto Casillas (118 lbs)

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360
DeAndre Latimore (154 lbs)

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150
Saul Rodriguez (129 lbs)

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309
Deontay Wilder (218 lbs)

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213
Brandon Bennett (135 lbs)

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144
Rau’shee Warren (116 lbs)

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107
Bryant Jennings (223 lbs)

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269
Wale Omotoso (148 lbs)

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360
Demetrius Hopkins (154 lbs)

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179
Cedric Agnew (175 lbs)

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365
Luis Carlos Abregu (147 lbs)

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106

Not a big difference in speed regardless of weight. Fighters from different weight classes made top 15.


FORCE

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Total number of punches thrown in the fight (minimum of 100)

Bryant Jennings (223 lbs)

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269
Deontay Wilder (218 lbs)

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213
Theron Johnson (230 lbs)

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228
Isa Akberbayev (196 lbs)

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411
Ronald Ellis (168 lbs)

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316
Cedric Agnew (175.5 lbs)

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365
Ryan McKenzie (175 lbs)

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302
Nikola Sjekloca (168 lbs)

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592
Sakio Bika (172 lbs)

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792
Anthony Ferrante (196 lbs)

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226
Chris Chatman (154 lbs)

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173
Jason Escalera (166 lbs)

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581
Edwin Rodriguez (165 lbs)

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522
J’Leon Love (158 lbs)

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502
Josiah Judah (165 lbs)

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191


SPEED BY WEIGHT CLASS

(Number of fighters in that weight class)
Italics = total number of punches thrown in that weight class

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Below 118 lbs (2) 175

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118 - 126 lbs (15) 2714

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126 - 135 lbs (25) 9419

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135 - 147 lbs (30) 12491

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147 - 160 lbs (42) 11560

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160 - 175 lbs (19) 5869

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175 - 200 lbs (11) 5359

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Above 200 lbs (10) 1595

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Average speed of jab decreases slightly as weight increases. Speed of rear hand isn't affected. Average speed is almost the same throughout.

FORCE BY WEIGHT CLASS

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Below 118 lbs

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118 - 126 lbs

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126 - 135 lbs

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135 - 147 lbs

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147 - 160 lbs

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160 - 175 lbs

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175 - 200 lbs

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Above 200 lbs

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There is a large positive trend showing an increase in force as weight increases. Look at the force produced by a heavyweight jab and cross. Compare that to other weight classes.

Ray Mercer hits harder than Rocky Marciano. He was much bigger. There are plenty of big guys that couldn't punch. Mercer wasn't one of them. Mercer was a big puncher among big heavyweights. Marciano was a big puncher among small heavyweights.

Don't be stupid. At that size, you lose coordination, mobility, and Valuev was very slow. Look at guys like Anthony Joshua, Lennox Lewis, Wladimir Klitschko. 6'5 or 6'6 heavyweights who weigh around 250 lbs. All have good handspeed and compact punchers. Compare them to Shavers.

Torque, technique, hand conditioning, mindset? This is hilarious. We're talking about professional fighters here. You think Marciano had better torque or technique? Tommy Morrison had great technique and he was a lot bigger than Marciano. Mercer had good technique. Look at the torque behind Mercer's right hand and Morrison's left hook. How about the torque behind David Tua's left hook? These guys knew how to punch. There's a reason they were considered some of the biggest punchers of their era. Marciano was a sloppy puncher compared to someone like Morrison. Stop falling for these myths and judge for yourself. Show me one fighter that weighed 184 lbs and knocked out ranked fighters who weighed 230 lbs. That's what Tua, Mercer, Morrison did. Marciano struggled to knockout old cruiserweights/light-heavyweights.