There has never been a weak era at heavyweight in the 20th century

Toney did clearly beat Sam Peter the first time around. huge robbery. Sam Peter ate counter right hands all night long.

 

MR. Bill. "..never be regarded a great champion by winning and blowing away a champion"?????

So, is it better to defend against ...
'old folks'...

'win the title in great fashion, defend against LH/Ws and M/Ws, whilst romancing with Hollywood'...

'bums of the month'..

'tour the world and defeat champs from each country, before losing to the coloured giant'...

'retire early, avoiding the coloured giant, and return to face him with disgraceful circumstance'....

'retire early and avoid all future heavy men'...

'claim to title and defend against no-one on the vaudevillean stage'....

'Take the title from a beast, be stripped by MORONS, regain from another monster, defend, defend, defend until damaged goods'...

'Win the crown as a youngster, get ripped off, ill-judged, ripped off again and permanently stuffed'....


So, what makes a great champ, in a great era??????

 

I agree with you! :good

 

Haye was barely 20 years of age when he fought below 200lbs. At 28 now, he matured into his frame and has been around 210lbs for several years and this is his natural weight.

I think it's kind of funny though, that you don't give Haye much of a chance, while i give Haye a good chance and in fact pick him by upset TKO win over Wlad!

I also think it's remarkable that you state ".. the better his chance to take Wlad the distance and scoring the upset". I think the most likely way for Haye to win is by stoppage; with Wlad's jab, if it goes to the scorecards, it's almost certainly a victory for him, unless he suffers multiple knockdowns, but even then it's no guarantee as we saw against Peter.

Yeah, that was when he killed himself to make 175 after he had gone past the age of 35. And it wasn't even against a decent lightheavyweight. The combination of weight drained, age, and ring mileage was just way too much. Similar to Roy Jones, lost a lot of his durability when he went too far and too fast down in weight when past 35 years of age. How you can hold this against Byrd is beyond me.

I'm still waiting for any Toney supporter to make a statement that doesn't involve "if he was in shape", "if he ....", all if if if, but at the end of the day, he didn't deliver and did not prove it, and lost to or should have lost to a lot of mediocre fighters, heavyweight, lightheavyweight or even middleweight.

Here is what i want you to do:

1. Watch the fast, stamina-filled 205lbs Holyfield get bulled around the ring by Bowe like nothing and nearly stopped.

2. Then watch him at 213lbs in the rematch where he held his own and beat Riddick. Sure, Bowe was in worse shape, but the Holyfield was better equipped at a higher rate.


Extrapolate that and you'll see that Holyfield below 200lbs would get killed by Bowe. Make a poll about it if you want, and see what others think. Yes, he was faster and threw more punches, but he was a lot easier to move around, hit less hard and couldn't keep big heavies off him. He'd run out of gas even earlier because of the large weight difference.


By the way, you say that an "in shape" Holyfield weighs less than 200lbs, as if you're the authority on when Holyfield is in shape and when not. I think he can make that decision a little better than you can, and clearly he he has more confidence in his abilities at 212lbs than at 205lbs or even lower.

But yeah, maybe you are right and EVERY SINGLE heavyweight over the last 15 years have made a monumental mistake by being out of shape.

Look at Holyfield being out of shape here:

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In case you didn't know, heavyweights no longer fight over 30 rounds and they also throw combinations today and know a thing or two about the jab and defence. You're applying "in shape" standards asif we're living in 1909, not 2009. You don't have to be a skinny marathon runner to be an in shape boxer.

This is a problem indeed, but far from as big as ducking behind the color line. Chagaev will likely finally finish the Valuev-Ruiz-Don King WBA roundabout may 30th, and it's very possible that a fight between him and either Klitschko or Haye comes off in the future, whereas Wills was ****ed because he didn't have Michael Jackson's disease. On top of that, Wlad unified against Ibragimov, Vitali fought Peter, Wlad fights Haye june 20th, and (if he wins) will defend against Povetkin before the end of this year. So, it's not like top contenders are not fighting each other.

Holyfield lost every single round against Ibragimov, who in turn lost every single round against Wlad. Yes, he showed a great effort against Valuev, who is way too immobile to deal with a mover over 12 rounds, but you gotta be kidding yourself in your love for the small guys (as far as a 6'2" 212lbs guy is small) if you think he could beat either Klitschko. Even prime for prime i wouldn't like his chances, but that's an other discussion.

This is non sense. Golota absolutely destroyed Bowe in a way that no one else did (including Holyfield), twice. There is no doubt that he is a top fighter, just that he is a ****ing headcase that always finds a way to lose. Against a light hitter (Byrd, Ruiz), he will always shine; against Bowe, i think his combination of speed, skills and stamina are amonst the best superheavies ever. I don't really know what recent success you're pointing at, either. All he's beaten were fringe contenders and he just lost in one (admittedly, by injury, but that doesn't prove you're the better man) to Ray Austin.

As for McCall being unstoppable, what does that show? None of the powerful heavies of the 70's could stop a fading or even shot Ali either, does that mean they all suck?

 

In my mind a great champion either has another all time great or greats to compete against, or is completely dominant over an above average group of contenders.
A not so great champ would be someone inconsistent against mediocre to average opponents, and dominant over a group of total garbage. No need to mention any names, but his initials are WK.:yep

 

Golota is a top fighter because he destroyed Bowe?:huh He lost every meaningful fight he was in, including both Bowe fights. Golota was a sideshow, chosen as an opponent because he was nuts. He was the Ricardo Mayorga of the heavyweight division, only he wasnt pretending, he was really nuts.

 

Ha ha ha. Nice work Lefty. I believe the man in the first sentence would be , M.A aca C.C.

:hey

 

Christ Almighty... The people who I ragged on earlier were either legit title holders or paper chumps..... But some of their title defenses were not up to par.........

All in all, I do consider Jack Johnson an all-time great fighter and champion..... He worked his way up the ladder the hard way...... BUT! He still won the title from Thomas Burns and made a defense against Stanley Ketchel..... Both were great fighters, yet totally over-matched against Jack Johnson... Fireman Jim Flynn was a crude brawler who was tuff and dirty, but was not a greatly skilled pro fighter......

Again... I like Jack Dempsey and his story, but his title reign often jacked off and J.D. beat some little dudes like "Gibbons & Carpentier," along with kayoing a giant stiff named Luis Firpo...... Again, Dempsey was a great fighter but his reign was not all that great....

Rocco Marciano was hard and tuff and also carefully handled / managed early..... Aside from his '49 KO of Carmine Vingo, Marciano beat up a lot of aging dudes who were slipping........ Dudes like "Louis, Walcott, Charles & Moore." Still, Rocco Marciano was great..........

I'll even give legit champs like "Schmeling, Sharkey, Carnera, Baer & Braddock" a pass... They were great fighters in their own right, but not great champs.....

To hell with the majority of the 80s WBA, WBC & IBF chumps..... Not worth going into... Aside from "Holmes, Tyson & Spinks," the rest of the lot were bogus belt holders who were still decent fighters........

Great fighters / champions include: "Johnson, Dempsey, Louis, Marciano, Frazier, Foreman, Holmes, Tyson, Holy, Lewis & The K bros."

Riddick Bowe had all the talent in the world, but he was too lazy and too well paid to really get serious....... Too bad.. Bowe was an incarnation of left over parts donated by Greg Page, Buster Douglas & Tony Tubbs....... Good fighters and former chumps who were lazy as all hell......

MR.BILL

 

MR.BILL, for a dumb arse such as myself, your words are perfectly placed.

In a sense, nostalgia (regardless of acttivity from the era) gives all Champs an even place on the podium. The Podium of Champions... and those names cannot be removed. All of those listed names can be questioned, dismissed, villified, victumised, praised, recounted, dwelled upon, sanctified and, for the sake of all future enthusiasts, be spoken of in the same vein.

 

"The Podium of Champions" has a nice ring to it. I like it! :good

 

A nice title for a book perhaps.