This one is for ALL the marbles...

I am saying...even if everyone accepts that what you said about lineage is true, and thus, the unifier of the WBA and WBC really is "The Champ", being Champ in boxing is not on par with being World Champ, say, in athletics...where the World Champ is always, by definition, the best, because he has beaten the best of the rest in a competition designed expressly to find the best...

...This is all I am saying.

Now, it is true that because in boxing transitivity doesn't work, ...so that A might be able to beat B-Y but still get beat by Z, even theough Z would himself get beat by C,D,E,F, J, L, P, S and W...it is impossible to design a competition whereby the winner would be the best, unless they all fought all the other and you allocated points for each win...and even then, because who wins is not always clear in boxing, you might have problems deciding...

...but that shouldn't mean that just because the Champ always has a good claim to being one of the best, he has more than a claim to being that...

...the only way the Champ would have a claim to that is if the Champ would be forced to fight the best out there, whether the best was mandatory according to his regulatory body or not...and beat him...

...Thus, if Kessler beats Calzaghe, he will be a Champ who will be able to claim that he is the best, because he has beaten the best.

...If Bute (having beaten Berrio for the IBF title) was fighting Calzaghe next, instead of Kessler, and he somehow managed to beat him, Bute would be the best, even though he wouldn't be Champ (because his IBF title wouldn't count, and neither would Joe's WBO title); Kessler would be Champ...but not the best, until he beat Bute...

 

Yes...if other belts didn't exist then the unifier would be the best. But they do...so the unifier, The Champ, isn't necessarily the best!

"Stop trying to rewrite history?":nut

When did I try to rewrite history? Didn't I accept that Kessler was The Champ?:huh

 

That is untrue, the NYSAC still had a major say, as did Fleischer's Ring....

Like I said the WBA was still the NBA with a letter change until 1976; the WBC meant nothing to anyone but the 11 countries that were in it.

By the time the WBA and WBC became what they are today, the WBC was stripping Larry Holmes and crowning Tin Whitherspoon instead, giving instant credit to Lee's IBF who picked up the balls called Holmes, Spinks, Hagler, Curry and Pryor and running with them.

The IBF also created the last line of boxing lineage by crowning Murray Sutherland World Super Middleweight Champion.

 

Yes, that is right - I am responsible for all the evils that occur in pro-boxing.:roll:

So, is your strategy: we should put the WBC WBA unifier, The Champ, on a pedestal and insist that he is the man, the boss, the best, just so that if there is a better man out there, he is forced to fight him to be truly considered the best,

1. for the sake of the legacy/continuity thing, or

2. for the sake of "cleaning up boxing", or

3. BOTH?

Because I don't think it will clean up boxing of the decay...because unless everyone agrees with you that the best has to fight The Champ to truly be recognised as the best, nothing will ever happen.

As far as I am concerned, fine! Let us do it. It's as good a strategy as any other out there - so how are we going to convince everyone - and more importantly, the boxers and promoters and money men of all sorts, not to mention the politicians that run the other bodies?

 

Dammit, I have posted almost 5000 posts here (granted, 95% crap ), but I am truly surprised that you are placing me in the "those who accept the decay of boxing" camp...

Why are you forgetting that I always go on about how I agree with achillesthegreat, that fighters should fight the best and "dare to be great" and not dodge and fight live threats and not have-been NAMES - bla, bla, bla and then I go on about morality - bla, bla, bla - and everyone is already asleep if not bored to death - and I go on about "daring to be great" and not dodging and I repreat and repeat and bla, bla, bla...? And after almost 5000 posts, you come and say: "You are one of the indifferent ones who contribute to the decay through your attitude!"

Well, Sir, you are unfair! But I will plead guilty to preferring fighters fighting the best opposition out there instead of opposition that the WBC or WBA rate more highly...I do because I don't care at all about the titles and the belts and the championships but only about how competitive the fights out there really are. And if that isn't to your liking, then, too bad, Sir!

 

To substantiate; your beloved lineage at Super Middleweight, and indeed its final moments of existance:

Murray Sutherland (Your King Alfred of 168lbs) WU15 Ernie Singletary (vacant IBF 168lbs title fight)

Chong Pal Park KO11 Murray Sutherland

December 1987 Park gives up the IBF trinket

Fulgencio Obelmijias WU12 Chong Pal Park (Park loses WBA 168lbs championship)

In Chul Baek TKO11 Fulgencio Obelmijias

Christophe Tiozzo TKO6 In Chul Baek

Victor Cordoba TKO9 Christophe Tiozzo

Michael Nunn WS12 Victor Cordoba

Steve Little WS12 Michael Nunn

Frankie Liles WU12 Steve Little

Byron Mitchell TKO11 Frankie Liles

Bruno Girard WU12 Byron Mitchell

Now stop getting so excited achillesthegreat; put it away. The lineage story is about to have a sad ending...

That horrible Frenchman Girard only goes and decides that lineage means nothing to him when he can make better money at 175lbs; so he vacated his crown and lineage died...

So there we have it; pure unadulterated lineage with not a WBA/WBC unification fight in sight!

 

To refute:

Murray Sutherland (Your King Alfred of 168lbs) WU15 Ernie Singletary (vacant IBF 168lbs title fight)

Chong Pal Park KO11 Murray Sutherland

December 1987 Park gives up the IBF trinket

Fulgencio Obelmijias WU12 Chong Pal Park (Park loses WBA 168lbs championship)

In Chul Baek TKO11 Fulgencio Obelmijias

Christophe Tiozzo TKO6 In Chul Baek

Victor Cordoba TKO9 Christophe Tiozzo

Michael Nunn WS12 Victor Cordoba

Steve Little WS12 Michael Nunn

Frankie Liles WU12 Steve Little

Byron Mitchell TKO11 Frankie Liles

Bruno Girard WU12 Byron Mitchell

The shaggy dog of history has spoken

 

How do I disagree with lineage as a whole? Which premise tells you that? I already stated that it is your precise definition of lineage that I disagree with.

Times have changed, things are no longer as they were in the mid seventies. The WBA and WBC have dug their own graves in more ways than one.