Thomas Hearns vs Pernell Whitaker At 147

I rank Whitakker higher at LW than I do Hearns at WW & higher than Hearns P4P, as ATGs.

At 147lbs though, it's a bad style match up for Pernell and I'd make the naturally much bigger Hearns a prohibitive favourite.

 

That's interesting Greg, why do you rate Pernell higher than Tommy P4P? I like Whitaker but surely he has less signature wins? I rate Chavez "draw" and Nelson win as slightly less than Benitez, Duran and Hill, along with Leonard 2 "draw". Also I feel Tommy does better H2H against many greats due to his physical attributes, as well as being a master boxer he was a puncher, unlike Pernell.

 

It's a close one mate & I'd have no problem with someone ranking Hearns above Whittaker on a P4P ATG list.

My reasoning is:

1) I rank Whittaker higher at LW than I do Hearns at WW:

• Whitakker was 24-1 at LW, 25-0 on fair scorecards. He went 6-0 in lineal LW world title fights during his 2-year reign. He beat Jose Ramirez (x 2 on fair scorecards), Azumah Nelson, Juan Nazario, Lou Lomeli, Greg Haugen, Roger Mayweather and Freddie Pendleton, mostly in non-competitive bouts. I rank him #5 all time at LW.
• Hearns was 29-1 at WW & never won the lineal title. He beat Pipino Cuevas, Luis Primera, Randy Shields, Clyde Gray and Angel Espada. I rank Hearns #9 all time at WW. Even then, to rank him as high as #9, I pay specific attention to how dominant Hearns was in his wins & how competitive he was with my #2 WW SRL, to hint at how good he is and balance that with his relatively modest win resume at the weight. Technically, he'd rank far lower than #9 if my criteria was limited solely to greatness based on the names on each contender had on their respective win resume in fights contested at WW.

2) I'd rank Whittaker higher at WW than I would Hearns at MW:

• Whitakker was 12-2-1 at WW. Most people consider his draw vs JCC as a Pernell win. He officially beat Buddy McGirt x 2 and Wilfredo Riveria x 2. His losses were past prime, in a close one with ODLH aged 33 & Felix Trinidad aged 35. Whilst irrelevant to his standing at WW, from a P4P perspective it should be noted that both Oscar & Felix were substanitally bigger than him.
• Hearns was 7-2 at or around MW, with losses to Hagler and Barkley, wins over DeWitt, Shuler & Sutherland. Clearly, his resume at MW doesn't match up with Whittaker's at WW.

3) Despite ranking Whittaker a greater LW than a Hearns WW & a more accomplished WW than Hearns a MW, I believe that Hearns was bigger for a WW than Whittaker was for a LW, and inparticular bigger for a MW than Whittaker was for a WW.

The above 3 points are offset to some degree by Hearns doing the greater work outside of WW & MW than Whittaker did outside of LW & WW (inc. arguably Tommy's 2 x greatest wins, over Benitez at LMW and Hill all the way up at LHW, though I rate Whittaker's win over JCV at LMW highly too), but not sufficiently to completely eradicate them, imo. Like I say, it's a close one though.

H2H P4P, wow, I don't have such a list, I suspect if I did, these two would be pretty close to the very top.

 

When i first saw this, I thought 'Someone doesn't like Whitaker'. Then I remembered his horrible interview in The Ring's Best I Faced in which his arrogance and lack of regard for anyone other than himself were off the chart and I though 'Me. In fact. This is a fight I'd love to see and watch Whitaker get a battering, After all, Buddy McGirt with torn rotator cuff limiting his best punch - the left hook -had put him down and pushed him close on the cards.

But then I thought of Oscar and Tito, both nearly as big and fast as Hearns, being taken the distance by Whitaker and I wondered if he could do the same to Tommy. It's possible, I suppose, but no way does he win.

 

Whitaker was never in with the level of fighters that Hearns was, out-boxing Benitez trumps anything Whitaker ever did.

 

Hearns had a far longer reach than those two, no way a short armed fighter like Whitaker could get past Tommy`s jab and don`t forget Tommy knocked out a light heavy, Oscar and Tito never knocked out anybody as big as Andries.

 

I agree that on the whole Hearns fought opposition superior to Whitaker.

Most people consider Whitaker beat JCC on a fair scorecard though, and JCC ranks higher than Benitez. You could argue the same about Tommy's 2nd fight with SRL, though Ray was well past prime by then.

Whitaker never legitimately lost in his prime, whilst Hearns did x 3, including to a fighter in Iran Barkley that, p4p, wasn't close to the level of JCC and certainly no better than some other Whitaker victims.

 

Whitaker has no chance in this one.

 

Outboxing Chavez was even more impressive, due to JCC's standing at the time. A genuine fight between the pfp #1 and #2. King's "trickerations and machinations" (to use two of his favourite words) don't detract from a Sweet Pea clinic. The rematch? One wasn't needed, the first fight was conclusive who should own that #1 pfp ranking.

 

It would, but like you I'd have Whitaker higher.

 

If your using the scorecard argument then surely Hearns has a win over Leonard in their 2nd fight then right ? And that would be a fairly big boost to Hearns's resume.

Wins over Leonard, Duran, Benitez, Cuevas, Hill, would be pretty tough to argue against.

 

I referenced the 2nd SRL fight in the post you just quoted.

 

I missed that somehow but again I wouldn't say it was Leonard way past his prime, he was coming off wins over Hagler, Lalonde, and then went on to school Duran who was fresh off beating Barkley in a great fight.

Neither man was in their prime obviously but Leonard was still a good fighter at that point, and if Hearns would've got the win which he rightfully deserved. Then I think he still should've got alot of credit for it.

Alot of people consider that Hearns always beats Leonard over 12 rounds anyway.

 

Thanks Greg a lot to chew on there! Well thought out as always!

 

SRL was 33 for Hearns 2. He was practically semi-retired by this point & had contested 2 fights in the past 5-years.

JCC was 31 for Whitakker. He was very active & had contested 26 fights in the past 5-years.

I suspect most people would consider SRL from Hearns 2 as further removed from his prime than JCC was from his vs Whitaker. Who do you consider was further removed from their prime?

I could be wrong & don't have any data to back this up, but I suspect that a higher proportion of people would have scored the JCC fight for Whitaker than SRL 2 for Hearns (though comfortably over 50% of people would have scored for Whitaker & Hearns respectively) and the average scores of press would probably be wider in favour of Whitaker than Hearns.

Finally, I don't consider either JCC or Whitaker as having a size advantage. At WW I don't conisder SRL or Hearns as having a size advantage, as Tommy's bigger frame was offset by being so skinny. At SWM (even given the catchweight), however, I consider Hearns, who by then had filled out his bigger frame a little more, as having a size advantage over Ray.

In summary, I agree Hearns desrved the nod for SRL 2 and he deserves credit accordingly. I think JCC does more for Whitaker's resume than SRL (even if just limiting analysis to SRL 2) does for Hearns though, from a P4P perspective, how about you?