Thoughts on Bartley Gorman... Educate me.

No.

People seem to really, really underestimate the sheer difference in class between pros and 'hardmen' - and these are some of the best pros ever. People love the hype, the stories. The reality is that Ali, Frazier etc. would quickly destroy anyone in this thread in any ruleset (or not) or location. Tip: when in doubt about this stuff, it's likely bull****. Of course some are tough / crazy and proven on the street or even the boxing ring, but a guy like Ali is in a different universe, gloves or not. The reaction times, the daily experience etc. It's just not the same.

This is still the best bare knuckle fight I've seen out there:

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You wouldn't want to be on the end of them that's for sure.

 

I think it’s totally unbelievable actually. Foreman was reputed to be hell on legs on the streets as a teenage punk and you’d need a gun to stop Joe Frazier from coming at you. Holmes was skilled and didn’t take any BS and Ali was a physical freak (like George). A brave street brawler of any ilk would be well out of their depth imo.

Mediocre pugs like Cliff Fields and Johnny Waldron hammered McLean and I doubt Gorman was much better than Lenny considering their backgrounds, training, lifestyles etc.

Richard Dunn beat the crap out Cliff Fields and we saw what a wasted Ali did to him. There really is levels to this stuff.

 

I'm not saying I believe he could I just wanted to see what people thought. Although I will say some of the best street fighters in boxing are very likely not who we think. Guys like Chuck Wepner, Tex Cobb, Cliff Field, Dominic Negus and Danny Hodge may not have been world class in the boxing ring, but outside the ring it's a different story.

 

I'm not so sure about that. I think you are discounting some things here .. I would take Gorman myself.. why ? throwing punches gloved and BK are two different things ... A boxer will be subject to getting his hand broke real easy .. There is a documentary on Bobby Gunn who explains the difference and he goes into detail ,, obviously he's done both ...... These are 2 different sports

Ali, Foerman , and Frazier ,, certainty wouldn't be hitting the bag like that bare knuckles

 

I respect what you’re saying, but there’s no way of knowing.

It’s a different sport altogether.

 

You’re talking about pro boxers vs street fighters in a boxing ring, and elite level pro boxers vs lower level/unlicensed boxers in a boxing ring.

That’s completely different.

Whilst you’d assume that legendary fighters would be great at it, there’s just no way of knowing.

It’s not a street fight.

It’s bare knuckle boxing with no referee or rounds, under LRR.

It’s completely different to a fight in the ring.

I wouldn’t say that it was totally unbelievable and a fantasy.

 

To some degree, I agree with this. Although I'd still side with the elite boxers.

That said, put a professional boxer into a fight under weird rules, and they aren't necessarily going to dominate it. Melton Bowen was a decent journeyman boxer who tried out the early UFC. Steve Jennum, a small, moderately fit police officer who trained with self-proclaimed ninjas, grabbed Bowen and threw him with one of the throws the old bareknucklers used. (Jennum, BTW, actually lacked the punching power to do anything except annoy Bowen despite sitting on top of Bowen and punching him -- again demonstrating that even a significant athletic gap between the boxer and non-boxer doesn't necessarily decide things. Jennum eventually won despite his relative feather-fistedness.)

That said, do I really think Frazier loses to Bartley Gorman or Lenny McLean under LPR? Probably not, no.

 

But you’re also working on the assumption that none of these elite boxers had street fights.
Foreman, Liston, Tyson would have had heaps of them and probably knew they had an aptitude for it. Add thousands of hours of training, elite fitness levels, proper punching form, top class sparring on top of already being athletically gifted tough hombres and I don’t see these lesser trained, less naturally talented, comparatively unfit brawlers winning under any circumstances.

 

Yeah it's stupid just arguing all the time.

10 years

I read it didn't go well for Malignaggi. 5, two-minute rounds. Couldn't hurt his opponent & quickly damaged his hands again.

 

I remember Steve Jennum.

I was fascinated by the early MMA fights.

The size differences and the different disciplines etc.


Lenny McClean wasn’t a bare knuckle fighter.

He was a street fighter.

I don’t think he’d have had great stamina.

Bartley used to do roadwork almost daily.


There’s nothing wrong with siding with the elite professionals. But I don’t see how it would be unbelievable to think that a bare knuckle fighter could beat a boxer in a bare knuckle fight.

No rounds, no referee, no doctor, no breaks, no stoppages on cuts, no straps.

You would had to have knocked Bartley out to have won.

As great as the boxers were, at some point, they’d have gotten hit with Bartley’s arsenal.

So I don’t think it’s some comic book fantasy.

A boxer fighting bare knuckle would look nothing like we’d ever seen them before.

They wouldn’t throw the same combination punches.

They wouldn’t fight at the same pace with the same volume etc.

 

No. I’m not making any assumptions. I’m just noting that your examples aren’t the same at all.

Of course, the elite level boxers, some of whom are legends, would be favoured in a bare knuckle boxing match.

I’m not arguing otherwise.

My only argument, is that I don’t think it would be an unbelievable fantasy to suggest that a bare knuckle boxer could come on top in a bare knuckle fight.

Street fights and bare knuckle fights aren’t the same.

Mike was known all over Brownsville as a vicious street fighter in his youth. As was Foreman in Houston, like you’ve noted. But they weren’t bare knuckle fights, against the best bare knuckle fighters, under certain conditions.

Like I’ve noted in my previous post, you can’t just assume that the boxers are going to fight in the way that we’re accustomed to seeing them.

There’s no rounds. No breaks. No doctors. No stoppages on cuts. No straps. Just bare fisted, where you’d have had to have knocked Bartley Gorman unconscious in order to have beaten him.

Unless they’d have been supremely confident in an early finish, they’d had to have changed their pace. Their repertoire of shots. Their volume. Unless an early knockout had have occurred, at some point, they’d had to have taken Bartley’s bare fisted shots. At some point, he’d have hit them. Then what? What if they’d have hurt their hand fighting bare fisted? What if they’d sustained a really bad cut? What if they’d have fought for a long time without a break? All of these things would be alien to a boxer.

It cannot be totally unbelievable to envisage a scenario where a guy like Bartley could possibly have won in his environment.

It wouldn’t have been beyond the realms of possibility.

If you don’t agree, then that’s cool. But I don’t think that it’s a comic book fantasy.

 

Yeah, it’s been 10 years!

Crazy!

It’ll be great to have a break from it all.

Ha!


When I heard about Paulie I couldn’t believe it.

He would have been the last person that you’d have expected to have been involved in something like that.

 

Exactly ,,, Shouldn't be too confusing here either imo.. Getting in a street fight with an the " average Joe " ..how in the hell is that remotely the same with fighting a pro BK fighter ? LOL .. In a street fight .. the average Joe isnt trained to fight or throw a BK punch , no more than he is to throw a boxing punch ? .. The mistake people are making is assuming a street fight , is exactly like a BK match .. punches are different, same as they are in boxing... BK guys can measure distance and time, slip punches just the same as boxers can ... the 2 train for this everyday .. this is not your average JOE SHMO street fight ... If boxers fought BK matches consistently they will break their hands .. that is why you dont see boxers hit heavy bags without gloves ,, the punches are different

 

Great post.