Thoughts On Canelo Using PED'S ?

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You get called a hater if you point out the facts about Canelo cheating

 

No ones noticed everyone is doing steroids? Did I miss something?

 

Yeah, Wilder is a pretty clear case too.

 

This is not even logic..I & others ask for evidence, or for you to reply to our fairly detailed arguments-& you got nothing.
Saying he is guilty because he is a pro is not offering any proof or even broad argument.

Now a few times you have just repeated a premise that is extremely cynical & as bad as saying all (fill in group here, such as by race or religion)...Are guilty of some illegal & immoral activity.

So I now officially ask you to *not* respond to me at all on this topic if you will only repeat that they are all guilty without any argument.
You are very welcome to address me on any other topic & I will continue to reply respectfully & without prejudice.

But please do not create trouble by yet another reply where you just say every athlete in all pro sports are using PEDs.
That is wrong & I am asking you nicely to stop the defamation of character.

 

I have a compulsion to reply whenever I'm quoted, it is not within my nature to not respond.

The full statements of guys like Lance Armstrong, Chael Sonnen and Larry Olubamiwo have convinced me beyond any doubt.

I wish I had your outlook and that only those caught were innocent, but i can't view the sport in that way based on the interviews and full disclosures I've read.

 

I did not even quote you, that is false. I said you provided no actual evidence & ignored all the arguments of myself & others-another guy recently.

You should not follow "compulsions" anyway. Stating that could mean one justifies anything because they cannot control themselves.
Instead develop a principle that when someone asks you nicely for a proof or to answer them, you feel compelled to rationally engage them.

At least you provided some broad reasoning this time, good thanks.
But do any of those guys prove-or do they even say anything like, everyone cheats?
Long distance bicycling may be the most corrupt sport going, even then where is the indication that everyone or near all, cheat?
I could point to say endless men over 6' 2", & there are indeed huge numbers that are.
But that does not prove that all are, & in fact only a fairly small percentage of men-& much less woman-are.

You completely mistook what I said re: only those who got caught cheated.
Please read with care: I gave that as an example of something that ALSO would be deeply irrational!
There are many who do everything-cheat, not cheat, not get caught, some get caught on false positives...

None of this shows how common any of these things are!
Citing individual examples proves nothing.
But in the end it is an extreme, untenable argument that all pros cheat.

Just like believing on faith nobody not caught does not cheat, or all who are caught (or even most) are falsely convicted.

There is an expression that is often applied to gauge what is pseudo-science: "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence".
You may have a fevered emotional reaction to hearing testimony about cheating being common.

However, none of this gives a sobet assessment of who or what percentage are innocent.

 

It's not false, you literally quoted my post when you replied.

 

I am glad someone provided an actual, if very simple argument re: Wilder.
First off, he is not a clear case at all.
He like anyone could be using. You or I could be a tax cheat or wife beater statistically (if married)-but it is nonsense to insist we must be because, say, many of our cohorts are.

Let's look at if there are any factors that make it *likely* he cheated & used PEDs.
Total muscle mass: he is easily within the potential of someone with his height & frame.
You could say yeah but it is all upper body: OK, look at what dimensions others can achieve with his bone structure, it is not at the limit either.
Here is maybe the best of the muscular potential calculators: [url]http://www.weightrainer.net/bodypred.html[/url]

Then if one gains muslce too quickly, at least if already muscular, that IS suspicious.
It was said that Wilder gained maybe 30 lbs. of muscle since his first fight with Fury.
No, he did not even gain 30 lbs. of weight, & some of that is gonna be a little more fat & water.
But even though it seems mostly muscle: that much bulk since 2018 is not improbable.
At least when he was 6'7" (or almost), & light for his height/especially for a modern HW, 212.5 for their first fight!

Look guys, he COULD be using. But we have no good reason to think he is!
He did not gain more than 7 lbs. since they fought the last time.
I have lifted for years. These numbers-& at his size with presumably great trainers-are like his bench press (especially considering the actual form I saw on a video....

Well within what is achievable completely naturally.

 

I think I see the confusion, sorry about mistaking what you were saying.
Yes technically whenever someone replies to an individual their past post is quoted.
I thought you meant I used quotes about something you said.
But that is the only way to alert someone that you answered them & to have an answer/start or continue a conversation.

So fair point.
But focus if you would on the meat of what I said-about endless examples of any behavior or phenomena not at all showing how common it is.
Let alone concluding that anything like every single person in all sports is a cheatin' lyin' constant PED user.
We do not even know that most do. Regularly or dabble. Although some sports clearly are more corrupt than others.

And you must agree that you did not understand that I used thinking everyone who is NOT caught is innocent is *also* irrational, a faith-based, evidence-free assumption.
You thought I believed this naive assumption---> This was the complete opposite of what I said.

 

It's OK I accept that.

As for the last paragraph, I was wrong then, but I suppose you're attributing a Schrodingers Cat then. We have those who are caught as being definitely guilty, but everyone else then is both guilty and not guilty until know the truth of the situation, which only comes out when there is a positive test or a guilty confession.

My belief is based on the statements of those like Larry, Chael and Lance. All denied, denied denied and then said a massive **** you to the system and gave a full disclosure.

So the matter of belief is more than just do we accuse everyone equally, it's do we believe these testimonies into how corrupt the sport is. Do we believe these people who insist everyone is doing it.

I choose to believe them, although I wish I didn't.

 

I do not understand how you interpret what I mean that way.
First the more minor point-I never said everyone who is caught is definitely guilty.
They probably are, but there are occasional extenuating circumstances & grey areas, such as when they may have not been careful enough about something they ate or a legal supplement. Although usually it is a lie, no always.

More importantly, the quantum physics analogy you postulate deals with things only on a minuscule scale not being in a determined state until they are witnessed.
Can you not see that I said nothing like this-just that without good evidence we cannot assume the reality?
Not that guilt or innocence is not an objective truth either way, as if we need to observe someone to make them innocent or guilty!
In any case it is possible that damning evidence is wrong, but with someone like Holyfield or espeically Pharmstrong, the odds are tiny given the weight of the evidence.

Individual people who denied & then lied are no more relevant than taking say tons of murderers who did the same & then were found guilty.
By that logic we all have a body count lol!

Now do those 3 examples insist *everyone* is guilty?
Even for those who do, what is the *evidence?
Surely you can see a cheater & liar, someone who corrupted a whole team & threatened the careers of those who did not go along with it like Pharmstrong, is likely to need to justify their crimes, & minimize pains of conscience if not a sociopath, by claiming or believeing "veryone is a criminal" & justifying needing to cheat.

Again an event like the Tour de France is among the most dirty. In part the difficulty of competing clean & winning, but it strains all credulity to suggest that with all the P.R. & testing & people disgraced & stripped of titles...
Nobody or hardly any people are deterred by the actual & social pariah penalties.

Whether pro athletes or regular folks, it is an extreme opinion to insit everyone cheats.
You should be as rigorous in questioning said extreme beliefs as you would with an insane claim such as nobody does who is not caught, or most or all caught are actually innocent.

In both cases: Where is the *EVIDENCE* for such radical claims that belie all statistical probability.

I ask you also to consider how it is psychologically more comfortable to have a firm belief-giving a sense of certainty when we feel dishonored by frauds, needing a sense of control-than to live with the reality that we as of yet have no good idea about how common cheating is overall.

 

PEDs has done wonders for him except for getting good fitted ball caps. Life’s a *****.

 

Pretty sure they all use them

 

Well that's the crux. Whether we observe them or not does not change the reality of their guilt.

They either are guilty or aren't guilty it really is that simple.

For me they are, I've explained my reasons why. You've explained your reasons also.

But your last point is a salient one, I feel you've projected somewhat there. Do you perhaps feel more comforted believing you aren't watching a sport riddled with PED abusers?