Thoughts on Carlos Ortiz????

sweet_scientist · Dec 24, 2011

Tin_Ribs said: ↑

It seems a rare occurence to me that the depth and immensity of his record properly receives the right praise. From the late mid-fifties when he started to hit world class up until late '71 when he came out of retirement, there's practically zero padding in it.

Wins over great fighters: Loi, Locche (questionable draw), Ramos x2, Laguna x2, Brown, Elorde x2. That's nine wins over upper echelon HOF standard opponents. Then there are all the top level contenders like Vaillant, Busso, Bizzarro, Torres, Takayama, Kosaka, Lane, Lopes, Rossi, Matthews etc. It's daft.

He might be just about the most complete fighter ever when you look at how he fought and the number of different styles he neutralized and repelled during those three reigns: punchers, speedsters, defensive wizards, technicians, swarmers. The lot. I often hear people call him 'workmanlike', and it always seems a bit condescending; almost like he was some neolithic toiler, although I suppose he's one of those fighters who can appear unremarkable on first viewing if you don't know what you're looking for.

He had subtle, unflashy feet that moved well in any direction, were rarely out of position and gave him good balance; every notable punch including a sharp, versatile jab and heavy straight right; excellent timing, punch selection and judgment of distance; good power and solid punching technique; cagey, almost minimalistic upper body movement and feinting ability; good combination punching skills and finishing ability/killer instinct; top level ability at every range; tremendous physical strength, stamina, durability and ability on the inside.

On top of all that - although he wasn't especially quick in a physical sense - he was physically a huge lightweight who had terrific speed of thought and was one of the all time great ring generals when it came to making an opponent dance to his beat, whichever way he went about doing it. Watch how he makes Old Bones Brown, a natural outfighter, lead and expend energy, jabbing and counter punching when most expected him to purely try to wear the older, smaller man out. And then watch him use a similar yet slightly different approach to diffuse an aggressive big hitter like Battling Torres, starting slowly and warily but gradually upping his work rate and physically asserting himself as Torres runs out of diesel. That one's on youtube. Then as a complete counterpoint, watch him cut off the ring to pin down, feint open and physically dominate Laguna in the last fight of their trilogy, especially after Laguna had had the temerity to outspeed him first time around when Ortiz was a bit off the boil. They all show his ability to adjust in order to go about his business when faced with a certain type of obstacle, and they certainly show how versatile he was. He also put Ramos and Elorde down in dominant fashion second time around after they'd both troubled him in their initial encounters (although Elorde was faded by the time of their rematch).

All of which leads to another thing that amazes me about him - his ability to remain so iron-fisted, consistent and dominant during such a strong, challenging era when he wasn't even particularly dedicated. He was a known lazy ******* and lover of the high life who struggled to motivate himself half of the time, something that was partially responsible for being upset first by Laguna and then later by Teo Cruz when the fire had almost completely gone out. Double-edged sword obviously as it put mileage on the clock that could have been avoided and meant that he could be upset on occasions.

The one who gave him the most grief though was Duilio Loi, when Ortiz supposedly hadn't quite hit his peak. He was able to match Ortiz for both intelligence and strength on the inside, subsequently outworking him twice in Italy after Ortiz had edged their initial scrap in San Francisco. There are bits of evidence to suggest that Loi deserved to win all three, though they were all very close fights by the look of it.

A magnificent fighter by any standard; his reign at lightweight is better than Duran's imo and maybe even challenges the tenures of both Leonard and Gans, though I'm happy to hear otherwise. Lightweight is the deepest division ever and Ortiz is nailed in the top 6 or 7, maybe as high as the top 3. It'd make my day to see people ranking him top of the pile.
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That's a brilliant post.

Ortiz gives every top lightweight of all time a hard fight, win lose or draw. Not many others can say that.

No one's had a better lightweight resume since (even though there's probably a handful that better it in the first half of the 20th century).

@Mante's John C. Reilly call.

Was laughing at it a couple of days ago and it's still funny now.

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Thoughts on Carlos Ortiz????

sweet_scientist Boxing Junkie Full Member

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Thoughts on Carlos Ortiz????

sweet_scientist Boxing Junkie Full Member