I have seen so many disagree on here, when the name, sonny Liston crops up. One of the best. Never saw the best of him, greatest jab. Overrated. He was a quitter. Beat a middleweight in Patterson Etc. Some of the opinions I've seen on here. Anyway, in your good opinion, what's your thoughts on the big Bear, is he overrated.? Or actually under??
Good, but overrated. That myth that he is beating 99 percent of HWs is very untrue since he struggled with b level fighters and lost again some. He was very good,talented but not that good that he is beating everyone except Ali.
I rate him in the top 10 and he was another victim of the mob, not a quitter. By the time Leotis Martin ko'd him he was ancient in boxing terms and was reliant on his jab. He couldn't even turn at the hips to throw his right hand anymore. I'm a big fan anyway
Think there's a fair bit we don't know about with Liston, and we never will. The Ali fights especially, and his death. But I'm a fan also, I don't have him in the top ten but not far off. At his best, most champs up to Patterson he beats imo.
We don't know when he was born, how he died and the exact reason he threw the second fight with Ali. The 2 books I've read on Liston were a let down and didn't do him justice. But watching him skip to Night train always brings a smile to my face.
I know, I love the mystery around his life to be honest. Bit like the Lord Lucan story, no one really knows for sure.
Yeah he’s overrated but probably less so than many of the cannon champs pre 1980. I said it in that mad thread from the other week, he never made the hail of legends in that recent vote, he never made the classic heavyweight top ten in that big poll last decade.
I've been reading bit s about it. Most of it speculation probably. Too many years past now. Not gonna find him now I reckon. Lol.
I don’t know that Liston is overrated but he’s certainly polarising, - as duly referenced in the opening post. I think Liston’s boxing skills might be somewhat underrated by some. He was a very well schooled fighter with good ring IQ. Notwithstanding the power he held that could end fights quickly given fair opportunity, he was also a patient and disciplined technician over the longer haul. I don’t see a fix in either of the fights with Ali though the events during the rematch were that much more bemusing with multiple players contributing to the mess. Sonny was old and past prime when he quit with a legitimate injury against Ali. injury. Imo, the Liston that fought Ali in Miami was a far cry from the Liston of the Machen and Williams fights to name 3 - much faster and on point versions of Sonny. The only true perceived controversies surrounding any of Liston performances in the ring were his two fights with Ali - any other claims of blinding were made retroactively and opportunistically, after the Miami fight - there was absolutely no substance (excuse pun) to those claims. Ali of course had a bit of controversy already surrounding his two fights leading into the Liston match. Otherwise, Liston’s fights, being all his wins and 1 loss prior to Miami, were clean cut, without suspicion or suggestion of anything untoward. Liston not only cleaned out the division before his title shot but he also cleaned it out as honestly, comprehensively and clearly as any contender possibly could. Here’s Cus D’Amato, very impassioned re what went down in the Ali-Liston rematch. I totally agree with his sentiments:- This content is protected Here’s Liston speaking before the Ali rematch. There’s surly and there’s surly. I’ve not seen Liston as legitimately peed as this though he does inject a bit of “humour”, lol :- This content is protected
He's trying to defend the honour of boxing like a lot of former boxers did, after first shouting "fix" Ali himself knew he hadn't landed a ko punch. When you land a ko punch, you know, and can feel it travel up your arm
As writer Robert Lipsyte has said,: "As Heavyweight Champion Of The World...you die trying! Liston didn't do that...he just sat there!" You can pick and choose a fight from 1959 to make your point...but the fact is he beat "chinny" Floyd Patterson twice in the first round in 1962 and 1963...and...in the 2 biggest fights of his career...he s**t himself in front of the whole world! As champ...he QUIT sitting on his stool against Cassius Clay in Miami in Feb.1964...and in Maine in May 1965...he took a DIVE against Ali. Lots of writers and boxing historians who know the fight game do not have Liston on their lists of the great champions...or...if they do...he's nearer the bottom of their list! And this is the guy that lots of you say would destroy Dempsey...Louis...Marciano...etc. I was born in the 1950's...have been watching and been a fan of boxing since 1963. Liston was NEVER on lists back then as a top 5 heavyweight. Only in this generation has there lots of revisionist history about Liston because he looks so menacing....his "STARE DOWN"....and all that crap! He has "quit" in him...is he on my all time list?...no!
But that’s the thing, most don’t believe the punch was worthy of a KO but was at least worthy of a KD. The slo mo shows a clear punch land and the shock travel through Ali’s arm. Remember, the initial reaction was that a punch hadn’t even landed because most didn’t see it. D’Amato isn’t exactly defending boxing either - he’s actually criticising the process that was involved - and tbh, what he’s saying makes perfect sense - how could the fight be called when Liston didn’t even get a count while Ali kept running around like a chook with its head cut off - and the fight was called on Fleischer’s say so, not Walcott’s - and Fleischer was no fan of Liston.
Fleischer should have definitely kept his nose out.He was a historian not a time keeper, referee or corner man. Liston came out and immediately he was over his front foot almost inviting a punch, any punch, even a downward travelling wrist flick.