Thoughts On Sonny Liston - Over rated Or Not??

All in all,Fergy,I do consider Charles 'Sonny' Liston a top 5 all time great heavyweight. Circa 1960 he was a formidable fighting machine with a ramrod jab,crowbar like right hand,stamina,good set of whiskers and decent defensive skill. Even slightly post prime in 1964 he was still very dangerous and it took a young genius such as Cassius Clay/Muhammad Ali to beat him.

 

Rocky,he ended the second Ali bout on his feet throwing punches. That's not exactly the best technique for taking a dive. He would have stayed down had that been the case.

 

Not in terms of legacy. Sometimes he’s built up like Superman in fantasy fights though. But overall I’d say no

 

I always prescribe watching all the fight videos available pertaining to him to all the people who say he's overrated.

He is "Overrated" for a reason. Just watch that jab, his excellent ring IQ, his adaptability.

 

Fair call Turps, many see the rematch in so many different ways.

I don’t think Liston deliberately invited any punch - he followed dancing Ali to the ropes, Liston reached with the jab as he did in their first fight, Ali, already close to the ropes, stopped and dropped a blindingly fast right hand chop, the impact of which could be seen in equal and opposite terms.

For speed (see the all too rarely shown side vision of the “anchor” punch) - it was indefensible - caught Sonny good enough for a flash KD imo.

It’s actually mislabelled as a phantom punch - that only applies to the real time perception given it was so fast most if not all missed the punch.

And definitely, when you don’t see a punch land and then see a guy fall, you will scream fix.

Everything that followed thereafter was a hot mess, a mess than Liston didn’t contribute to nor could have choreographed to facilitate a “dive”. He clearly didn’t want to arise with a Ali buzzing around him and refusing to recede.

Also, many said that Liston’s reputable chin wouldn’t fail under such a punch - but that assessment ignores that Ali clearly wobbled and stunned Sonny in their first fight - a chopping right hand included among those punches that did same.

I totally get that Occam’s Razor might suggest Liston simply took a dive or quit under duress. But sometimes the old Razor doesn’t apply and the whys and wherefores involved are actually somewhat complicated.

 

His technical weakness, was that he didn't have any.

He had power, he could box, he could take the most helacious punch, and he often knew what his opponent was going to do before they did.

If this forum has taught you anything, it should be that those attributes alone are no guarantee of greatness.

So then it comes down to what he actually accomplished?

Very solid on paper, but clearly an underachiever.

Would he beat Rocky Marciano head to head at his best?

Probably.

Was he as great as Rocky Marciano?

No, and it isn't even close.

 

Ali hadn't been koing other boxers and even though Liston invited the punch by being over his front foot hence doubling the power, it was still only a tap.
Liston should have been sued for not being in the actors union.
If i'd have gone down from that punch I would have died of shame.
As I've said 100's of times, Ali's reaction is the key, he knew he hadn't landed a worthy punch never mind one that would scramble Liston's sense.

 

Liston, amid the confusion between Fleischer and Walcott probably thought he'd had enough of rolling round (who told him to do that?) and decided to get up.
Ali is wondering why Liston fell over, obviously not in on the fix.
Liston got up but didn't throw another punch.

 

Definitely,Fergy.

 

Actually, Ali had some good KOs behind him and he’d already hurt Liston in the first fight as I said. Liston attested to Ali’s power after the first fight.

Ali was nothing if not histrionic so his reactions weren’t a reliable gage.

That was no tap to the chin. Slo mo linked below.

Ali screamed at Liston to get up the instant he hit the deck - for Ali knew, Liston might’ve slipped and certainly, after a just 1 sec on the deck, Ali wouldn’t have known if Liston was going to stay down or not.

If Ali was worried and wanted Liston to arise, he should’ve receded to a neutral corner. Atop that and instead, Ali stayed close and started in on preemptive victory laps after only about 6 secs - before 10 secs had elapsed after the KD.

Also, Liston let himself drop back to the deck as Ali, in victory lap mode, was about to buzz by yet again.

Liston did say his arising was delayed due to the risk of being hit by Ali as he began to arise.

There are a lot of plot holes in the case for Liston taking a dive.

This content is protected

 

My knowledge of boxing and boxing history is not on par with Fergy, and many of you, but I will give my honest opinion, even if it is wrong.
If Sonny Liston was given the chance to fight for the world heavyweight title against Floyd Patterson in 1959; Ingemar Johansson would never become a champion.
Floyd Patterson avoided a fight with Sonny Liston as long as possible, and we saw why at the end.
Therefore, they would never watch the Floyd Patterson Vs Ingemar Johansson trilogy.
So IMO Sonny Liston is not overrated.

 

Just to be fair, it wasn't Patterson who was frightened of Liston, it was Cus D'amato.