Thrilla in Manila is so overrated

Untrue. Ali was landing with power while on the ropes. He opened up and stood flat footed in this bout (Manila) much more than the other two fights combined. An opponents features don’t swell as did Frazier’s from pitty pat punches. It takes a level of power to make this occur.

 

If you didn't see Ali laying on the ropes in fight 1, clowning and slowing the pace throwing those pitty pat punches then you didn't see the fight or you need to view it again. Don Dunphy "those pitty pat punches aren't doing much for anybody".
And yes ofcourse Ali threw hard punches but as FOTC wore on he fought more in spurts and did more than his share of resting his legs.

 

I watched Ali Frazier 3 live in a packed Totowa Ice World in northern NJ via closed circuit TV. NEVER for any other bout I’ve seen did the crowd react with every ebb and flow. It was an absolutely thrilling and riveting event that left me and my friends physically drained by fights end. The crowd was going absolutely wild.

 

I'm referring to the first fight. I understand the 3rd bout was fought at an unusual pace for heavyweights.

 

Again my comments were regarding Manila.

However Frazier’s face fell apart also in 71. Pitty pat punches don’t have this effect. But yes Ali was doing too much clowning..why? He was tired.

Fight 1 was a great fight but Manila was better. By mid rounds in 71 both men appeared exhausted. In 75 there was little rest as both men were punching incessantly.

 

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The above video is the NBC broadcast sometime in the late 80s. At 21:20 Eddie Futch addresses the difference in Ali and the pace he set in Manila compared to the other 2 fights.

 

It all makes good copy and myth.
Just like Ali was going to quit at the end of the 14th.
Dundee absolutely rubbished that.

 

So anyone who agrees with you is being serious and anyone who has a different opinion from you needs to 'be serious'...
Wow - such arrogance.

Are you suggesting Ali didn't rest on the ropes or clown in Manila? Watch the fight again.

Frazier was an easier target in Manila than in their first fight, he didn't bob and weave anywhere near as much so Ali wasn't missing like he did in the FOTC. This doesn't mean that Ali went at Frazier more in Manila.
Yes, he went after Frazier at the end of the first round because he'd hurt him but, again, this was a result of Frazier being easier to hit.

Both fighters were slower in their movements in Manila, the heat was obviously a factor but they were slower fighters in their movements by this point in their careers anyway.

I still don't see the relevance of fights in the lightweight division when I'm making comparisons between the pace of the first and third fights between Ali and Frazier.

I guess I'm still not being serious enough.

 

By the time of TiM, Ali had perfected the rope-a-dope and used it (at least sparingly) in every fight after. And he most certainly used it for TiM..

I keep wondering if I should watch both fights again, because I remember the announcers for FOTC being bowled over at how fast the pace was for a hvyw. fight...I don't remember the same about TiM, it was a far more sporadic fight.

TiM was two top ten ATGs who really didn't like each other and were prepared to die. We the audience saw perhaps the last flashes of greatness from Ali (besides perhaps the last rounds with Lyle and Shavers), and without question the last of the Great Joe Frazier. It wasn't FOTC imo, but it is a top 10 most exciting fight (FOTC is in the top three for me, along with Holmes-Norton and Pryor-Arguello I).

 

Futch is only referring to the start of the fight rather than the whole fight.

But then again, maybe Futch isn't being serious enough for you.

 

Really? That's interesting because I always felt that the only time Ali was used the rope-a-dope effectively was in Zaire. Against Foreman, he spent a lot of time on the ropes making Foreman miss.
In his later fights, Ali seemed to just use it as a way of 'resting' and allowing his opponents to hit him and wear themselves out.

I say 'resting' because I'm not sure how laying on the ropes, allowing your opponent to hit you can be a way of conserving energy. Instead, it allows the opponent to punish you and win rounds. I would have thought it would have been better for Ali to stand in the middle of the ring and throw punches or stick his glove in Frazier's face when he wanted a breather.

I don't think the rope-a-dope did Ali any good in Manila. He went to the ropes in round 3 and opened up at the end of the round and missed nearly all his punches.
Maybe this impressed the judges but I can't see how anyone could not score it as Frazier's round.

 

Ali was punching with Frazier flatfooted in 75. In 71 he mostly lay on the ropes to rest (he said so himself). Ali knew he was punching better than ever so his strategy was to let Frazier have it toe to toe rather to lay there passively. In 75 he was punching WITH Frazier. Also he broke this up by occasionally dancing and moving here and there.

It’s not generally known but Ali introduced a new version of ropeadope just before his bout with Lyle ..... “The Mirage”. Basically ropeadope mid ring rather than along the ropes.

 

Manila was a three part act:

Rounds 1-5 were mostly Ali’s.
Rounds 6-11 were mostly Frazier.
Round 12-14 Ali surged and Frazier wilted.

In the end I had it 8-6 Ali with Frazier ahead by one round after the 11th. Joe had Ali in serious trouble in round 11. The announcers said little but watch closely around the 1:45 point in the round. Frazier is countering beautifully to the body at mid range then brings a short hook to the head. Ali is hurt and Joe tries to tee off on him. Then out of nowhere Ali rallies. Still Joes round.

 

Middle-of-the-ring-a-dope. Perhaps but I still think the Foreman fight was the only time it was an effective strategy.