Their size was pretty negligible when Delaney fought Flowers. Delaney was still fighting as a MW at that point and only stood about an inch taller than Steele.
I feel Flowers was in with a deeper talent pool than Steele myself...If Steele would have fought in Flowers' opponents in that time line it would have been difficult for him.
Flowers was a bit chinny and didn't pack near the pop of Steele. Freddie was damn near unbeatable for a time and went 60 fights undefeated. I rank him #4 all time for the division.
Fair enough...Respect your opinion, and find myself agreeing with it sometimes...I do see your point definitely about the power difference, maybe not so much about being 'chinny'...my question is how you think Steele would have done against the fighters that Flowers faced? Very tough era. Would Steele have been damn near unbeatable against those fighters?
Who are you referring to? Which fighters specifically? I don't think he would have been knocked out like Flowers often was. To me this isn't a question of who was better but who would win. I think given their styles and attributes Steele would flatten Flowers. Steele was a very skilled, fluid, and hard punching boxer. Not unlike Jack Delaney. That could cause Flowers a lot of problems. Flowers was a volume punching swarmer. He was very fast and had a lot of stamina. If you couldn't knock him out he almost always beat you or at least drew with you but Steele could have knocked him out and I think that is the most likely result. I think Steele was as good as any of the guys who knocked Flowers out. I think Flowers would come to Steele, flurrying, trying to bury him under an avalanche of boxing gloves but ultimately I think he would run into something and it would cost him. I don't see Flowers stopping him. Steele was durable and was never really stopped in his prime. His stoppages to Apostoli and Hostak (both much harder punchers than Flowers) came after his career had been ruined by the death of his manager/father figure Dave Miller. His only other stoppage came in an ill advised comeback after having been out of the ring for three years. The guy could really do it all and was incredibly well rounded. Flowers was a terrific athlete, always in shape, fast, threw lots of punches and had a lot of stamina but he wasn't a hard puncher and he couldn't take a good punch so I just think youd have to favor Steele. Flowers best bet would be to cut Steele (Flowers was a guy who was known for cutting fighters) but Im not aware that Steele ever had issues with cuts so even that's a long shot.
I'm referring to the overall era in which Flowers fought being the tougher era than in which Steele competed (IMO). Your ****ogy of the fight and who would win sounds like an acceptable scenario...but where we disagree here is this: I feel Flowers fought in a tougher era hands down...and I place more credence in that, and therefore feel that Flowers is also capable of beating Steele in an altogether different scenario. Because mainly he fought the tougher competition. I wonder if Flowers would have been considered so 'chinny' if he had fought in Steele's era instead of his own.
But my question still stands. Who were these guys you think would have beaten Steele that beat Flowers? Saying it was a tougher era is one thing, supplying the names Flowers fought that made it so tough is entirely another. Flowers was knocked out by several men that i think Steele beats. Flowers drew with several men that i think Steele beats. Steeles two worst losses, Hostak and Apostoli, I think would both stop Flowers as well. I think a prime Steele beats the spent bullet that was the Greb Flowers beat in 1926 and maybe neats the rapidly fading 1924 Greb that beat Flowers. Im not sure that Flowers beats some of the best guys Steele beat and id pick some to stop him.
I cannot comprehensively say I would pick these fighters against Steele...he was a great fighter. I said it was a tougher era. You know the names better than I do but here goes. These are the fighters that Steele would have had difficulty against at the least, and would have probably beaten him. Mickey Walker, Maxie Rosenbloom, Harry Greb, Kid Norfolk, Jack Delaney...It's a relatively short list. Mickey Walker at that time he won the title would have been too strong for Steele. The fight with Walker is of co**** recorded as a loss, but reports read say Flowers won...This win says for me that Flowers would hold his own against Steele...and trumps any win on Steele's record. Rosenbloom-Larger man. Difficult style. Harry Greb- Saying that Steele beats Greb from '26 would tried to regain title is a stretch! Steel obliterated Vince Dundee, knocked him down how many times? 10? And still Dundee kept getting up, after repeatedly getting nailed flush. You think that Greb would have been that easy to hit? What about Greb's ring smarts and physical style? Do you think that after so many fights that Greb would have been hit over and over like that? Dundee walked in squared up and hands down, asking to be hit. I can't see Greb with his record, being that inept at ANY point in his career.The Greb from '24? A real stretch...I'll just respectfully say...No way. Apostoli demonstrated that Steele didn't like to be back up. Greb would have had him reaching...AND would have backed him up. Who from Steele's record gives you the impetus to guess that Steel would have beaten the Greb from '24???? Kid Norfolk-Too big. Too physical. Old Sam Langford- Still dangerous hitter...and a bigger man. Jack Delaney- Good style. Good power. Fought at higher weight. Like I said a tougher era...much tougher. Now I'll ask you who are the several men who would beat Flowers? Do you actually think that just because a fighter has a swarming style he is easy to hit? Flower's record in itself clearly demonstrates that his style took him to a long career in a hard era...If you're easy to hit, you get eaten alive...and quickly. Please give me the "several"names of whom you think beat Flowers from Steele's era
The Rosenbloom who gave Flowers so much trouble would not have beaten a prime Steele. At that point Rosenbloom as still a middleweight and still developing. He had lost to a ton of guys and continued to lose to a lot of guys, some of whom were ham and eggers. Jack Delaney as well, I would pick a prime Steele over. The Delaney that Flowers fought was still a MW and less than a year before he knocked out Flowers he had gotten his ass royally kicked by ex lightweight Bryan Downey whod had one fight in the previous year and lost it. After beating Delaney like a drum Downey lost his next two fights, one by stoppage. Im not sure what your point is about Steele-Dundee vis a vis Greb. Dundee was knocked out just once in a long career and that was to Steele. Go look at all of the terrific fighters Dundee fought who not only couldn't knock him down but who couldn't beat him. Steele did both, how that gets twisted into a negative against Steele is beyond me. I don't know if Greb of 24 could beat a prime Steele. It sure would have been a good fight BUT Im fairly certain Flowers couldn't. That's the point. Greb of 26 is a completely different story and Im confident that a guy I think would have smashed Flowers would have outpointed the guy Flowers beat that year. Greb was coasting on fumes at that point. I also don't think Steele would have lost to a blind Sam Langford in 1922 who came into the fight hog fat and some people said his sight as so bad he had to be lead into the ring. Who exactly was Langford beating in 1922 that makes him appear so dangerous?? The only two other names he fought around this time were fringe contenders that never panned out and he couldn't beat them. I have no doubt that Langford could still punch but don't sit there and tell me how elusive Flowers was in one sentence and then defend him getting knocked out by a very old, very fat, blind man. The guy as chinny period. Would guys like Walker and Norfolk beat Steele. Maybe. I wouldn't make them heavy favorites. But they beat Flowers also. Steele wouldn't have lost to a fraud like Tut Jackson, or an old Jim Flynn, or Chuck Wiggins, or Panama Joe Gans, or Lee Anderson, or Jamaica Kid, I could keep going but I don't see the evidence that Flowers was THAT good because he fought in that era. Had he beaten a lot of the names he lost you might make that argument, but he didn't and he often lost very badly to the names he lost to showing that while he managed to win the title based on a combination of getting Greb at the right time and having the right style he wasn't the best guy around. I would even argue that the era he fought in was starting to become transitional when he came into prominence. It wasn't like the late 1910s when you tons of all time great fighters running around and fighting. A lot of the names he fought were either fading (Langford, Flynn, Greb) or still on their way up (Rosenbloom, Lomski). To each his own I guess but I just don't see Flowers having much success with Steele. Steele was exactly the type of fighter who gave Flowers problems and usually stopped him.
