Tim Witherspoon in the 1960's heavyweight tournament

Ellis was surprisingly good that year.
I wouldn't necessarily expect Witherspoon to beat him.

 

Witherspoon beats Ellis. People forget Ellis was a former middleweight who left the division because he couldn't hack it there. Ellis had good skills speed movement but Tim was bigger stronger a natural heavyweight and had equal skills. I loved time philly shell defense against Holmes

Ellis couldn't take a good punch against big strong heavyweights, I expect Witherspoon to box on even terms with him before landing the right and after a series of blows finishing off Ellis

Witherspoon tko 8

 

Jimmy Ellis beat Leotis Martin, Oscar Bonavena and Jerry Quarry to win that tournament.
There weren't cream puff punchers by any means.

 

No they were all very good fighters, but none with the type of style or attributes that Tim had. I think he's too physically imposing and his style was awkward. He'd win that tournament and then face Frazier for the title.

 

People "forget" that because it never happened.

Ellis fought as a middleweight from the age of 21 to 24, and then he couldn't make the weight anymore.

Hell, he couldn't even make light heavyweight when he left the middleweights. He had a couple over-the-weight fights there and became a full-fledged heavyweight.

You don't leave middleweight because you "couldn't hack it" and then move up several divisions where a prime Ali is ruling.

What's surprising, given his size, is how long Ellis actually managed to remain at middleweight. He couldn't even make weight for a lot of the middleweight fights he engaged in.

Ellis was 6'1" and a solid 190-plus pounder for the vast majority of his career. He was a bigger heavyweight than many of the names he faced - including Martin, Quarry, Patterson and Frazier.

Ellis was a very good fighter. Hell, I might take the aging Ellis who beat George Chuvalo over just about any version of Witherspoon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sN0CKkJgMvE

Aside from the Holmes fight - when Witherspoon fought great - Witherspoon had a very spotty career with his poor performances often outnumbering the good ones.

The Witherspoon who fought Holmes would likely win the 1960s tournament. But that was about the only fight where we saw THAT Tim Witherspoon. (You could almost argue that was Witherspoon's "Tyson-Douglas" moment, and Spoon wasn't really any better than Douglas.)

Like Douglas, Tim would look good in one fight and stink out the joint in the next.

Ellis (from 1967 to 1972) arguably wins that tournament and beats everyone in it ... no matter how you match them up.

Ellis also beats nearly every version of Tim Witherspoon as well.

 

Jimmy Ellis is being overrated here. The guy lost a lot as a middleweight. Frazier Ali smoked him, a 33 year old Patterson got robbed of a decision, and earnie shavers blasted him out in 1

 

He couldn't?

The only heavyweight to score a KO over Ellis was arguably the best heavyweight puncher ever - Earnie Shavers.

Both Frazier fights were stopped by Angelo Dundee. Ellis took Frazier's shots in both fights and refused to quit. Same with Ali. Ali couldn't put him away. Ellis was still punching.

On the other hand, Witherspoon had a terrible lack of character (he spells out that lack of character in hi bio).

Forget about refusing to quit, Spoon quit all the time. He'd quit in training. He'd quit in the ring.

If anyone is getting stopped in an Ellis-Spoon fight, it's Tim. He'd get stopped even when he wasn't hurt. He'd just call it a day on his own.

Witherspoon hit hard, but he wasn't Shavers. And if Ellis could flatten Bonavena twice, he could put Tim down enough times to make him quit. (It didn't take a lot to make Tim quit.)

 

Who cares if he lost at middleweight. When he was a full-fledged heavyweight, he was one of the best of his era.

He wasn't losing to Bigfoot Martin.

 

I agree.

IMO, Witherspoon tends to get overrated ... period.

When he was rated, he barely edged Renaldo Snipes (who wasn't known as a boxer). He barely edged Page (and quit in their rematch). He barely edged Tubbs (who was in awful shape). He barely edged Mike Williams and Carl Williams (both via split decisions) and neither of them had a chin at all.

The idea that Tim would just come in and impose himself or steamroll the people in the 60s tournament isn't realistic because he rarely did that at all.

Who did he actually blow out? Quick Tillis, James Broad and Anders Eklund? Is that it?

I don't see it.

 

Have a look at how he was matched. He was fighting top experienced contenders in his early fights. He fought Wilf Greaves in his 4th fight, he faced Holly Mims in his 6th fight, lost, but beat Mims in his 9th fight.
You know this is impressive stuff.
Henry Hank, his second pro loss, was only his 13th fight.
Losses to George Benton and Don Fullmer were close decisions.


Jimmy Ellis was better at heavyweight.
He beat Martin, Bonavena and Quarry to win that tournament, and they were all pretty good fighters and pretty good punchers.

 

Same here. 3-0 for Timmy. I think Witherpsoon is a top 25 ATG. A pity Don King black balled him.

 

What wins did Tim Witherspoon have that impressed you to rank him so highly?

 

Tony Tubbs
Greg Page
Frank Bruno
Renaldo Snipes
Quick Tills
Bonecrusher Smith
James Broad
Carl Williams
Jose Ribalta
Jorge Gonzalez
Alfred Cole
Ray Mercer ( robbery)

That's 12 wins over named opponents, a fair number of whom were prime and a good number also ranked. He has additional wins over some decent prospects and a few respectable journeyman too. Not exactly a Muhammad-Ali like resume but certainly well better than average. He was a two time fragment title holder and also ranked 11 years by ring magazine. Some felt he was also robbed against Holmes while having only 15 fights. Don't know if this earns him a spot in the top 25, but I'd say he's easily top 40.

 

Truth is, Witherspoon barely beat Greg Page, it was a very close 12 rounder.
Also, his 15 rounder against Tony Tubbs was quite close too, and Tubbs was 244 pounds of fat.

His 10-round win against Snipes could just as easily have gone to Snipes.

I liked the way Witherspoon dominated Bonecrusher Smith in their first fight, and he battered James Broad (maybe his peak performances). He stopped Bruno.
But then Tubbs had already outboxed Smith, and Smith had KO'd Bruno.

I thought Thomas beat Witherspoon quite clearly, clearer than Witherspoon beat Page that's for sure.

Overall, Witherspoon has a decent resume but it shows he wasn't above the level of the other title-holders.

Berbick might actually have a better resume than 'spoon.