Tim Witherspoon in the 1960's heavyweight tournament

Looking unimpressive or barely getting the nod shouldn't cost someone points. If you fight the best guys around and beat the best guys around you should be acknowledged for it.. Otherwise Ali should get docked for all three of his fights against Norton and a few others as well. Greg Page was the consensus best heavy in the world next to Holmes who ducked him in 1984. He had mandatory for sometime. Holmes didn't fight him and Spoon did. Let's not slap him in the face for it. Tubbs was undefeated WBA champ and probably top 3. Spoon took the fight and won. Tim had 14 fights against Snipes who was already an established contender and just gave a prime Holmes a real scare. Spoon battled through a broken jaw to take that win deserving or not. As for Berbick? His win list certainly rivals Witherspoon's. Victories over Tate, Page, Thomas, Green, and Bey certainly isn't bad... But what about the other column? you know the one that's usually colored in red? I see names like Bernardo Mercado and St. Gordon appearing in that one. Do those sorts of names appear in Tim's column when he was prime? Sure they appear later but not when he was campaigning to be best in the world.

 

Actually that's 11 wins. He didn't beat Ray Mercer.

And the Snipes win was a majority decision. The Williams win was a split decision. The Page win was a majority decision. (And Spoon quit in the rematch with Page). The Smith win was clean (then Tim got KOed in 1 round in the rematch). Ribalta (another majority decision win).

Who did he beat straight up - Bruno, Tillis, James Broad, Jorge Luis Gonzales?

Then what about all the dives he admitted to in his book? What about him just doing drugs and quitting in fights because he didn't care.

This guy wasn't an all-time great at anything. He tended to squeak by when he cared. And he lost badly when he didn't.

 

Well, it won't get them in the top 25 of all-time, that's all.

 

Yes I said it was a robbery, but we can omit it.

So what are you saying that he lost those fights? Or that he doesn't deserve credit simply because they were close? Or are we just looking at the judges results on paper?

You mean when they were both in their forties and spoon tore a back muscle.

.

Fight was a dive and with some of things Don King was doing to him I didn't blame him.

I saw that fight and it was hardly close. Tim one most of those rounds. Ribalta was still ranked in the top 10 by at least two of the alpha organizations.

Doesn't mean that those other wins don't count.

I believe he dove in the Smith fight.

I never said he was, but an honest person would be hard pressed to list more than 40 or 50 heavyweights who should clearly be rated ahead of him.

Yes against the best heavy's of his era. And he rarely lost "badly" when he was prime with the exception of Smith who he admitted to throwing in the tank.

 

He was mandatory for the lineal title and the incumbent champion was stripped of his title for not facing him.. Witherspoon fought him and won. Simple as that.

And Tim had what, 14 pro fights and a virtually non existent amateur career?

The undefeated WBA champion and ring magazine's #4 heavyweight.

Well by that logic Ali and Holmes must have been pretty lousy fighters because both men had plenty of close decisions and plenty which were contested. Of course I realize their legacies don't rest on the shoulders of those fights but the logic still fits the mold.

I'd rank him higher than any of his peers if even only marginally. I have him as the third best heavyweight of the 80's But I agree its close. Mike Weaver and possibly Trevor Berbick are the only ones who might legitimately rival him for that #3 spot.

This happened twice in his career.. One of them against a man who he fought 15 years after the first meeting when they were both shot fighters and retired in his corner due to an injury. The other was due to a dive which of course is disgraceful but neither of us know what was going on behind the scenes. In either case its nothing to draw gross generalizations about or to sum up his ENTIRE career with.

 

Not really. He was the WBC mandatory. And Holmes spent more than a year trying to get a unification with WBA champ Gerrie Coetzee made instead.

Holmes-Coetzee was announced multiple times, but each time the money fell through.

A Holmes-Coetzee unification was considered a far bigger fight than Holmes-Page.

Page had the top promoter in boxing pushing hard. Every time Page was named number-one contender, he lost. He was never the second-best heavyweight.

After being named Holmes' mandatory, Page lost four of his next five fights.

And the only fight he won, against Coetzee, he scored a KO in a round that ran nearly four minutes. The result should've been overturned or an immediate rematch ordered, but they were happy to be rid of a South African heavyweight champ. Athletes were vilified for even going there.

Page isn't what you're making him out to be.

Neither was Tim.

 

Is that what he did? Tore a back muscle?:roll:

Did he tear a back muscle against Brian Nielsen, too, or just quit?

Did he take a dive against Smith? Most guys take a dive before they get their front tooth knocked out.

He was terrible at taking dives.

He was stoned out of his mind, quitting in corners, tearing "back" muscles (Bobby Czyz used that alot too), taking dives, and barely edging ordinary guys far too much for me to ever consider him "A GREAT" fighter.

If your signature wins come over Page, Snipes and Tubbs, and you barely get past them ... on top of all the dives and quits and getting embarrassed by the Bigfoot Martins of the world ... you're not an all-time great anything.

You kind of have to have a "great convincing win" against a great fighter in there somewhere.

That's just my opinion.

 

So pinklon Thomas owns clear victories over weaver and Witherspoon and you don't consider him for 3 spot?

 

That wasn't a prime Mike Weaver he beat bro. And you know as well as I do that winning one fight in a head to match doesn't necessarily mean you'd rank higher than the man you beat. I listed Witherspoon's win list next to Pinklon's and Tim's list of scalps quite literally quadruples Thomas's, on top of having a ring rating ( something I know you hold in high regard ) for double the time.