Tim Witherspoon vs all of Sonny Liston’s victims

No, Cummings did.

 

You're just trolling at this point. Obscures like Tommy Thomas, Pierre Coetzer, etcf all made their way into the rankings at some point in the early 80s.

What's your point? Machen would be to small for Cummings? Cummings went life and death with the 200 pound Bobby Jordan and was actually behind on the cards before scoring a KO in the penultimate round.

What the **** does this have to do with anything?

Williams draw with Machen isn't a detriment to Machen. It's a testament to Williams'. Machen wiped the floor with punchers like Dejohn, and Valdez, who also were light years better than Cummings and actually have more than zero wins over top tenners.

Yeah the immortal Snipes, who at the pinnacle of his career drew with the ATG Scott Frank.

Have you watched the fight? Cummings had SFA after the third round.
Difference between them is Machen was the number 2 contender. Snipes was number 15. They only took the fight because the top ten was to high a bar to reach. Had Cummings won, he would've actually gotten a win over a top 20 contender, but he couldn't even achieve that.

I agree. He wouldn't stand a chance against the likes of a guy named Laughin' Larry.

It wasn't a blind robbery by any means. Both men did little of anything. Only difference is Cummings wasn't a shot, late 30s, has-been. Cummings could certainly have gotten the nod, but it's not indefensible like fights that were actual robberies.

Shows how confident you are in your opinion that Cummings is "so much better than Williams."

 

****, wait, you're right. For some reason I was thinking of The Ring's annual rankings instead of the rankings given by all the sanctioning bodies. My apologies.

Machen would be much too small and much too weak for Cummings, and he was proven to struggle with heavy punchers given the bouts with Williams, Liston, Johansson (Obviously that one is a lesser case, Ingo dropped Eddie with ease but the finish was total bull**** on part of the ref, and if not for that, Machen could've likely gone to a decision if he turned to spoil as usual), and Valdes (The first match was extremely close and Machen was losing the second one on most judge's scorecards before the knockout). I haven't seen the Jordan fight, and also can't find it to review to see if you're right- So if you could send it over, I'll check it out. But from small lookover of Cummings' record, he definitely had the tendency to either sleepwalk, or just straight up underperform in fights (He also wasn't very skilled, lol). This might be a holdover from him working towards a career in bodybuilding before turning to boxing, and therefore having a gas tank not fit for the sport.

I was simply crediting Williams' strength with doing the work that brought him the proper win in both fight. Terrell seemed to steer clear of every single decent puncher when looking back at his record. Who's the next best puncher on Ernie's record after Cleveland? Tell me that. Wepner? Garcia? An old ass Sid Peaks? Zora Folley might be the closest thing to a man with legitimate knockout power after Williams, and we know that Folley was no dynamite thrower.

Machen did not wipe the floor with Valdes, and Dejohn was a no-talenter who got whooped every time he faced top competition apart from an old ass version of Nino, an even older version of Whitehurst, or Chuvalo.

A draw has no bearing on Snipes' chin, most will tell you that he was robbed there, too. If you wanted a fight to make Renaldo look weak, why wouldn't you just reference the Coetzee fight?

Yeah, I also had "Security Force Assistance" after the third round. (I have no idea what SFA means)
Number 2 in a transitional era. Archie Moore was still rated in 1962 in his old age when he was a shadow of his former self. If Cummings was present in 62 he could've been rated with ease.

I forgot about the loss to Frazier, sorry again. Williams would win that one pretty easily, and looking at Cummings' full record again, he'd probably go 50/50 against Sims. Flip a coin and either guy could win.

Frazier was out on his feet multiple times during the bout and was gifted the chance to go all the way, let alone the draw itself.

Is confidence really the deciding factor in what we're talking about here? When a vote happens on this forum, popularity is almost ALWAYS the first thing to factor in here. Go look at the Greatest H2H Middleweight thread up, Hagler is the most voted for guy there- Of course the Big Cat is going to be voted over Jumbo.

 

Here's Witherspoon not getting knocked down against Smith -

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A PEAK Witherspoon. Tim was obviously not trying to win that fight. The instant that he gets hit once he's just in his high guard, bobbing without even looking at Smith, and just letting Bonecrusher go at him.

 

No, he got drilled. Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the face.

 

If you can't see the difference between Witherspoon in his first and second encounter with Smith, that's on you.
He won every single round against Bonecrusher in their previous match, and then gets stopped in one just a bit over a year later, and you don't see anything fishy about it? Crazy.

 

He practically got taken out by the first punch. He probably would’ve done better if he’d warmed up for a few rounds without getting rocked.

 

It's a total sham. He was in a court case with Don King at the time and likely just lost so he could leave their contract.
Watch how he starts the fight out, he comes out and throws a lazy left hand and isn't in his usual Philly Shell, which leaves an easy path for Smith's right hand, leans forward some, and then immediately goes back towards the ropes without any pressure needed. If you watch any other one of Witherspoon's fights, you'll know that he looks nothing like himself- His main thing was defense, why would he just leave himself open like that unless he wanted to get hit?

 

I’m well aware of Tim’s ridiculous excuses. He got his teeth knocked out.

 

Use Occam's Razor. He never got floored against Bruno, Sims, Broad, Cummings, Snipes, Page, whoever, not even Smith put him down in their first fight, but then he gets dropped three times in the first round against Bonecrusher when he's having a dispute with the guy who holds his contract... Would an excuse make sense?
Are we gonna just assume that Smith hit him on the mark like no other man did for the previous 4 years, nor the following 13 years? Bull****.

 

That’s boxing. Guys get hit and go down. They don’t intentionally get hit because of Don King. They don’t intentionally get their teeth knocked out when a fight with Mike Tyson hangs in the balance.

Bonecrusher deserves all of the credit in the world for doing exactly what needed to be done to beat a superior boxer after he got a big shot in.

 

All good. Cummings never came close to appearing in either so I can understand the confusion

Cummings had all of ten pounds or so on guys like Valdez, and Williams who were infinitely more skilled than Cummings and actually, you know, made it into the ratings.

He also struggled greatly with the aforementioned Jordan.

He didn't struggle with "heavy punchers". They were his bread and butter. More than that every puncher on his record in his prime years was better than Cummings. Literally every single one.

Incorrect. Machen was winning on two scorecards and down on the third.

I don't have it. I was referring to the judges scorecards.

It's not that he was sleepwalking or underperforming. He just wasn't very good.

What other punchers were around for Terrell to face? Dejohn and Valdes were retired by the time Terrell was making strides in the division.

Dejohn also has more top ten wins than Cummings, and looks much better on film. I wouldn't go that route if I were you.

Snipes actually beat Coetzee who was a rated contender. He couldn't even beat Scott ****ing Frank who'd never seen a rating in his life.
Yeah, I also had "Security Force Assistance" after the third round. (I have no idea what SFA means)

Pretty rich considering the 80s heavyweight division is seen as one of the weakest in recent memory.

We're FINALLY getting somewhere. Seeing as Williams by your own admission would actually turn a loss into a win on Cummings' record, I'll accept that as a concession that Williams was the superior fighter.

lol Sims never beat anyone of note.... including Cummings.

He was not "gifted the chance to go all the way." Cummings was just so poor, he couldn't finish a shot, fat, 38 year old blind man.

This just sounds like a cop-out tbh. Vast majority of the posters here are completely objective.

 

Louis got KTFO by Schmeling and then stopped him in 1 round in the rematch

 

Witherspoon could blow hot and cold, so he probably trips up somewhere.

On the flip side Witherspoon would still have been in the rankings after Liston had shuffled off this mortal coil.