Tim Witherspoon vs all of Sonny Liston’s victims

Are you comparing Joe Louis to James Smith?

 

Why would you try to defend your title against Mike Tyson if you're gonna get conned out of money in the process, and have to deal with law disputes while you're trying to train for the baddest man on the planet? It doesn't make sense.

I never took any credit away from Smith, I think he was a good boxer and this was a great, clean win on his end.

 

It was part of the tournament and fighting Tyson was where the career high money was. You’ll never hear Tim mentioning that part.

 

"All of ten pounds" over guys like Valdes and Williams matters more past the cruiserweight split. I have no doubt that Machen would not be able to take Cummings' best punch.
You say that he struggled greatly with the aforementioned Jordan but I see quite literally no cataloguing of the scores from anywhere that I checked. It's not on Boxrec, there's no recording of the fight, and if you search up the fight itself there is nothing to support your claim at all. Every mention of the fight is exclusively, "Cummings won by TKO in the ninth against Jordan". The absolute MOST I see that could even hint at Floyd struggling is someone saying that he "managed" to get a win off of Bobby.

He struggled enough with em to where he drawed against Williams, had to spoil an entire fight to live against Liston, and got knocked down easily against Johansson.

Right, I looked back over Boxrec and I read the scores wrong for their second match. In my defense, it was 2 in the morning. But Machen still had tight scores with Nino in their first encounter.

Do send some evidence of the scorecards if you got it.

Read what I put in those brackets again.

Patterson, Liston, Johansson, Bonavena, Quarry, Frazier... His first match with Williams was in '62, and he looked just fine until after the Ali fight, where he went on a string of losses, and never beat a decent name again.

I'll say it until the cows come home, he fought in a weak era, for 12 years, I'd sure hope that he got more top 10 wins than the guy who fought for four with bad skills and didn't have a lot more than strength and a good chin. Cummings wasn't amongst the top ten rankings in the 80s because he wasn't good enough, and the guys that you're putting up were even worse than that and still able to beat top tenners.

Snipes got a robbery against Coetzee, whereas the Frank draw was a bum decision that should've gone to Renaldo.

"Seen as" isn't the same as "was". From '59-'64 (When Williams first fought Liston to when he got shot), who were the absolute best of the division? Liston, Patterson, Johansson, a young version of Ali, Machen, Folley, Williams? Any of these guys apart from the ATGs in the crowd would've gotten whooped post to post from the men present in the division from '81-'84 (From when Cummings fought Snipes to when he was convicted) at their peaks, you've got Holmes, Witherspoon, Thomas, Berbick, Weaver, Page, Snipes, Coetzee, Tate, Tillis, Bruno, Smith, Williams, etc. etc. Talk about "pretty rich".

And Cummings would still beat Williams at his best. My claim was "And he's still better h2h than Williams".

Sims would've beaten people of note if he was put into the weak ass era that Williams was from.

Again, he was out on his feet multiple times against Cummings, and Floyd simply couldn't finish him because he was a bad fighter. He still shouldn't have been allowed to go all 10 against him and get a free draw.

I've seen some pretty bum votes on my short time here. Would you be satisfied with this conversation if other people told you you were right?

 

The series was an idea all the way back in 1985, and was simply a tournament to unify the titles, NOT one to lead up to a fight with Tyson. Mike was an up and comer at the time and only became a part of the series after he knocked out Berbick a mere month before Witherspoon lost to Smith. And once again, why would you try to retain your title and contract with a man that's taking out over 90% of the money from your purses?

 

Why would you believe that number?

 

Jack Newfield gave us the referenced account in his book, "The Life and Crimes of Don King: The Shame of Boxing in America". If you search up the account it'll take you to Wikipedia, which will then reference his book.
Not to mention the fact that King robbed many fighters of such purses at worse rates than just that.

 

Guys w management issues take layoffs. They don’t get laid out.

https://www.boxingforum24.com/threads/tim-witherspoon-i-took-a-dive.520552/

 

Every time I give you evidence, you try to move to a different claim, lol.

 

Right.

 

Does Magoo's original post not stipulate that every man is at their best for each fight? We know how Witherspoon handled big punchers like Bruno and Smith when in peak form.

 

I totally agree it was a bit bizarre and had some underlying factors (out of shape fat Tim etc etc etc) but one also has to see the difference in Bonecrusher. His whole plan was to take it to Witherspoon due to his lack of success the previous time and it certainly showed. Regardless he was banged to the canvas.

A point is that Tim schooled him in the first fight and didn't have to ship Bonecrushers best punches let alone a bunch of them quickly.

 

I'm strictly talking about actually taking Crushers punches as per my previous post. Smith didn't hit him anything like he did in that second fight.

He has an excellent chin, absolutely.

 

I never meant to take away Smith's win, and I stated it before on this thread. I think that that is Bonecrusher's best performance, whether Witherspoon was trying to lose or not, but we have to keep in mind Tim's state when regarding it to his own prime.
I think that his destruction of Witherspoon is as impressive as it ever could be.

 

Yes fair post. There was certainly bit going on in this match.