Tim Witherspoon vs all of Sonny Liston’s victims

For what it's worth, this is how the Chicago Tribune saw it:

Jumbo Cummings of Joliet stumbled and sweated his way to a ninth-round technical knockout over Bobby Jordan of Norfolk, Va., in the cofeatured heavyweight bout.

Referee Stan Berg stopped the bout after Cummings finally summoned enough energy to put together a flurry that sent Jordan lunging to the canvas.

 

Thank you for that. Do you have a link to the source?

 

Always!

https://ibb.co/CJ8j15b

Coincidentally, Ernie Terrell was the promoter.

 

Not the first time I've seen him to be referred to as a promoter, but it's still odd to see.

 

Does Tim beat Johnny Summerlin in his 6th and 7th pro fights? Summerlin broke Zora Folley’s jaw a few months later

 

Bobby Jordan was a better fighter than his record shows, but probably didn't have the management or the money to move his career. He finished 7-7, but lost 6 of his last 7 fights. He beat Bob Stallings in his 5th pro fight, the same guy who had beaten Earnie Shavers and Mac Foster. Jordan also had a decent amateur career including some international fights. Jordan lost to Pinklon Thomas (eye injury) as a late sub for Tex Cobb. Jordan is one of those fighters who if given time to train for a fight might surprise his opponent. There are guys out there with mediocre/poor records who don't have financial backing who can fight (Stallings) and there are people who have good records who are not good, but have the financial backing to pick their opponents and their records are much better than they should be.

 

Yup. The guy who went the distance with Sonny ****ing Liston couldn't dream of taking Cummings best punch. Machen would be the first top ten or even top twenty contender Cummings ever beat if he could accomplish such a thing, which given his record, is laughably doubtful.

I found newspaper archives of the fight which listed the scorecards. I didn't clip it, so I'll have to go back and search for it.

Williams was a top five contender. Liston, and Johannson were future champions. Cummings was...... Cummings.

All good

Yup. After the Ali fight, his success dropped off a cliff, implying he was never the same after that bout which makes sense considering the punishment he took.

That's besides the point. What punchers were around for Terrell to face off? Dejohn was at the end of his career and hadn't been rated in years.

You can keep saying it as many times as you want, it's simply not true. Cummings just wasn't very good in the 80s, nor would he have been in most other eras. He was losing to the likes of Laughin Larry (no not the circus clown) who hardly would've made a dent in the 60s.

I haven't watched the fight in a while, I'll rewatch it later and let you know my thoughts.

I'm not understanding your point here at all. Cummings wasn't nearly as good as any of these aforementioned men in the 80s. So even if your premise that Williams, Patterson, Machen, etc would lose to those guys is true (which I'm still skeptical of) it means Sweet **** all, because Cummings wasn't on the level below these guys.

Your claim is just factually wrong with nothing to back it up. Cummings looks worse on film, doesn't have nearly as good a record, and never even sniffed a top ten ranking.

Sims couldn't even beat a washed Shavers. The 20-24 Bob Stallings beat a prime one. Stop being silly.
He also lost to several obscure names like Larry Alexander, and Phil Jackson.

Frazier was not "out on his feet multiple times", and if he was, and Cummings still couldn't have finished him, he's even more pathetic than I thought. The fact that even you refer to him as a bad fighter speaks volumes.

Pretty rich coming from the guy who voted Mike McCallum as the GOAT middleweight.

 

Spoon beats them all, he in his 15th pro fight almost beat or even beat Holmes, while Swag is trying to explain how Williams was green in his 34th pro fight, which is laughable.

 

The guy who spoiled the whole fight and got stumbled by Liston's body shots would not exactly be the best pick to take a strong man's best punch. I wouldn't guarantee it happening, Machen was a very skilled tactician and all, but he wouldn't take Cummings' punch.

But you see the pattern, right? No matter the difference in skill even amongst those three mentioned, they all gave Machen issues. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt against Johansson as we never really got a fair match between the two, but it doesn't negate the fact that he got knocked flat on the mat quickly against what would become one of the least skilled heavyweight champions of all time.

That point has nothing to do with Cummings, it was only brought up because you thought it was "rich" that I was calling Williams' era weak when the 80's is simply thought of as bad. I agree, Jumbo was nowhere as good as any of the guys that I listed, but I wasn't trying to say he was.

The only evidence I need is Cummings' punch. Bruno credited him to be the strongest puncher he ever faced, and Williams did not have an outstanding chin when faced up against devastating punchers. Frank faced Smith, Witherspoon, Tyson, Lewis, but Floyd was stronger than every single one of them. Do you really think that Cleveland would be able to take that kind of a punch?

Stallings was an outlier in Earnie's record, and Bob had a hell of a chin- He took Mac Foster's punch, he took Ron Lyle's punch, and he right as rain took Shavers' punch. Earnie had issues going the distance and winning the decisions early on, note that out of the two times he went the distance before that point, he split even, lost one to Johnson, and won one against Rondon.
Losing to that 80's incarnation of Shavers isn't bad either, Earnie was still insanely formidable even going late into his career- He beat Norton and gave Holmes a hard reckoning in '79, dropped Mercado and Cobb in hard fights in '80, beat Sims in '81, and then decisioned Bugner and nearly knocked out Tillis in '82. Jeff had also only fought 14 fights before being matched with Shavers, and he was still able to rock and drop him in the first round, something even the huge punching Mercado didn't do. This is no shame for Sims, but rather an accomplishment for being able to do so good against such an experienced fighter while he was still quite early on.

I saw what I saw in that fight. It also isn't very telling that I'm calling him a bad fighter, as I've noted multiple times in my posts that he was a bad boxer, but simply had a big punch and a good chin.

I never referred to McCallum as the GOAT at middleweight, that's disingenuous. I said very clearly, "McCallum is the guy I'd pick to beat everyone else, if I really have to make that decision.", and beyond that, I explained to JohnThomas1 further why I felt that way, as well as his matchups against fighters such as Kalambay, Toney, Nunn, and Jones.
If you need me to reiterate what I said there, I do not believe him to be the greatest of all time, and I don't even believe him to be the greatest middleweight head to head definitively, but if I have to choose, I think he has a fair shot to beat every single other man that's ever been in the division.

 

Jumbo Cummings has waited forty years for his name to appear in impassioned debates among fight fans. Here’s your moment, J-Man.

 

Machen was knocked by Ingemar Johanson, Cummins is not that worse fighter than him.

Top contender without a single good win on his resume unlike Chuvalo or Quarry.

Cummings was never knocked out except Bruno and especially was never knocked out by LHW with no chin.
Only time he was counted out was him standing on his feet and fight was stopped

 

BUZZZZZZZZZZZZ!!!!

Incorrect!

 

He was rarely at his best for any match. Consistency was not his forte.

 

Then you are creating an imaginary fighter, which is fine. But let's admit there was not Timmy who showed up 100%, or even that close, the majority of times.