Tim Witherspoon vs Deontay Wilder

I'm not sure Wilder has faced many opponents, who could be considered dangerous punchers - not even Arreola; Breazeale maybe, but he had less than 3 minutes to land so it has little to do with either Wilder's durability or his defense.

In any event, of those he has faced, Fury certainly isn't counted amongst them and, in his and Wilder's first encounter, Fury put nothing on his punches at all. So, there's no surprise Wilder didn't fold under Fury's connects in that contest.

Ortiz, caught Wilder with a half-decent shot and had him all over the place.

Even Molina had Wilder staggered with a cuffing left hook.

I'm not necessarily saying Wilder is 'chinny' but, it raises questions when the relatively light-punching Fury pretty much had their second fight won by the end of round-3, despite taking his sweet time in finishing the job.

 

you don't need a lot of power to drop a guy whose supposedly "chinny". Do we disagree on the definition of that word? It's synonymous with a glass jaw.

Well this is a silly accusation to say Wilder was picking on them since Stiverne was ranked #1 and demanded his rematch. He was only a year older than Povetkin who Joshua defended his titles against and who knocked out recently #1 ranked Whyte. Joshua also plans on facing Pulev who is around that age. A lot of ranked heavies are in their late 30's.

I don't deal with what its, Ortiz can bang and landed flush face punches and couldn't drop Wilder in 2 fights. A chinny glass jawed guy would not have stood up to those punches regardless of the other guy's stamina.

Fury's ear punch clearly affected Wilder and took out his legs. Every single boxing match I've seen where someone got blasted in that area it severely weakened them no matter how good their chin was. He may not have stopped Wilder at all if not for that shot. Wilder was never as wobbly or out of breath in any other fight for some reason, he was always in great condition if nothing else.

And none of them dropped Wilder. The only time he hit the canvas was from a body shot. He was never counted out in 44 fights.

First point is fair. Most people would have tripped up over their words and refused to say Wilder has decent defense either.

The competition criticism is no longer valid when he is facing the #1 heavyweight in the world for the 3rd time. That's literally the best he can do outside of unifying with Joshua.

Several of the guys he was defending his belt against were ranked by the WBC. People need to get over it. The people Joshua was defending his belt against were not always ranked in the top 10 in all 4 sactioning bodies or by the ring. And Fury is even worse. He literally dug up random European level nobodies.

 

The devastation that a shot to the ear causes cannot be understated. It completely messes up your balance. The placement of the punch had more to do with the damage than Fury himself.

The proof for this is that AFTER messing up Wilder's equilibrium with that illegal ear shot and rabbit punches, he couldn't actually drop Wilder with several flush shots to the head despite Wilder's poor balance and crappy leaky defense. Wilder was even in the middle of throwing a punch when the towel was thrown which shows he was clearly fully conscious and had enough mental clarity to argue with the ref and his corner. This indicates to me Fury's barrage of punches weren't coming close to actually knocking Wilder out.

I do agree with the stoppage since he wasnt properly defending himself and was getting hit clean over and over.

 

We can't be sure what the actual effect of the punch to the ear was, but Wilder seemed to think that it didn't affect him at all, in comments he made post-fight.

I'd say, Wilder lasting for a few more rounds after the first KD, had a lot to do with a cautious Fury and his tendency to overshoot and then smother his own work up close. There was a lot of scrappy mauling going on and it wasn't until he felt he had him absolutely spent that Fury decided to really pick his shots to aim for the finish line.

I think we know how much more quickly that fight would have ended, had there been any one of a number of other Heavyweights over the past decades in there, in Fury's stead. But, full-on assault has never been Fury's MO and so he was breaking new ground, in himself, in my opinion.

Like I mentioned earlier, though, Wilder may not necessarily be chinny, but I wouldn't consider him particularly durable either. He was pretty much a rabbit in the headlights from the end of Round-3, onward. I don't think the ear injury had a lot to do with it, because it's not the narrative I saw being written about, in the final analysis, over the days that followed the contest.

Either way, Wilder will have his chance at redemption soon enough.

 

I wasn't trying to claim Wilder was some granite chinned juggernaut either. I was just addressing the repeated claim that he was chinny or glass jawed when there is absolutely no evidence of that.

I don't care what Wilder says about the ear shots. He reacted exactly the way every fighter I've seen who loses their equilibrium reacted. The tell tale sign being that he was wobbly for the next several rounds yet Fury couldn't drop him with much heavier shots directly to his face. Wilder had tons of adrenaline pumping through his system and didn't notice how bad the damage was.

The narrative after ward was about glove tampering and the costume fiasco so no one focused on the obvious trigger for the disaster. DURING the fight commentators took note of the bad angle at which Fury nailed Wilder and how he seemed uncharacteristically wobbly at such an early stage of the fight. Everyone else in the room with me noticed it too. But drama is far more profitable than basic logic and biology.

 

I take it you saw Fury drop him, right?

All of them hurt him. And two of them dropped him.

Why are you deflecting? Who's talking about Joshua? Pulev isn't a good defence either. But Povetkin is decidedly better than Ortiz and Stiverne. Stiverne being ranked number one is a joke. His ranking doesn't change the fact that it's a joke opponent and laughable to bring up that 2 minute slaughtering as evidence of a good chin from Wilder.

I thought you don't deal with what ifs.

Who has Ortiz stopped to prove he can hit hard? Jennings doesn't count btw. Ortiz had wilder completely ****ed. If you can't see that then I don't know what to tell you.

When did I not give him credit for fighting Fury? It's a great thing for Wilder.

Who's talking about Fury or Joshua's competition. Stop deflecting.

Just because the WBC rank them, doesn't make them good. Whether Molina or Breazeale were ranked means nothing. Neither are elite, and both had Wilder hurt.

And if you're seriously trying to make out Wilder's first six title defences as decent/okay or even just not ****, then don't bother replying. We're clearly on different pages.

 

With a shot to the mid section, yes. Last time I checked your chin is on your head.

Keith Thurman is a guy who has a decent chin and is willing to go toe to toe but runs like an ostrich on crack when he gets hit in the body. Those are two different things.

Anyone can get "hurt" in a boxing match. That doesn't indicate someone is chinny. Literally everyone gets hurt. That doesn't tell me anything unless a boxer is getting hurt in almost every fight or to boxers who barely have any power.

Knock downs or knockouts are the more obvious indications that someone has a weak chin. A weak chinned fighter cannot take a prolonged beating over several rounds.

No one except Fury dropped Wilder and that was with a body shot.

YOU brought up the age of Stiverne and Ortiz so I responded that several of the top guys at heavy are in their 30's and 40's. What's the problem? How is that a deflection?

You don't get to pick and choose which rankings are better than others. Open that can of worms and we can have a facetious 50 page argument making anyone's resume look bad.

That's why I wrote "may"

You don't need to tell me anything. Ortiz had him hurt with several flush bombs yet he couldn't drop him and somehow this makes Wilder's chin look bad...?

The most ironic thing about this discussion is that it was aftet this fight that people started giving Wilder props for being able to take a punch. Even thr commentators were impressed he survived the round. Name me some current boxers that would have just shrugged off Ortiz's barrage?

I didn't say you didn't give him credit but you suggested that his chin simply hadn't been exposed due to poor competition. You can't really say that when he has been fighting the best opponents in his division for 2 years in a row. And he has been defending his belt against ranked fightets in his sanctioning body.

Ok so First you get to pick and choose if someone's ranking means something, now the conversation is "even if they were ranked it doesn't make them good"...?

I am not suggesting Wilder has some sort of hall of fame worthy resume but you can't keep picking and choosing when to take the sanctioning bodies seriously. All four of them are guilty of goofyness, corruption, and shady practices so I don't get why we're having this conversation. I don't remember anyone singling out the WBC for criticism until Wilder came along. Coincidence?

Point being a champion has to defend HIS belt against ranked fighters. It's not his fault if people in his top 10 aren't that great to you. To be frank, many boxers in the top 10 of the 3 bodies aren't particularly grrat fighters either. Wilder doesn't seem too concerned about contenders. He had been chasing unification since way back in like 2014 when he and Fury were going back and forth building hype, until Fury went on his cocaine and burger binge. He tried tirelessly to make things work with Joshua but Eddie Hearn is a control freak. That's a whole mother conversation tho.

 

Chin isn't literal. It means durability as a whole.

Not everyone gets hurt by Eric Molina.

Scoiners dropped wilder.

You did exactly what I did, but about Anthony Joshua. The ages of Povetkin and Pulev have nothing to do with the ages of Ortiz and Stiverne. You brought up two old men, neither of whom are collosal punches, and only one of whom landed clean (and had Wilder on ***** street) as proof Wilder isn't chinny.

You can pick holes in anyone's resume. It's just a lot easier to do so in Wilder's. A lot easier.

Same thing.

Who has Ortiz stopped? What makes him a good puncher? Boxers who can currently take a barrage like that? Christian Hammer and Malik Scott immediately jump to mind.

You did see where he got beat up and stopped, right? And his chin was exposed way before Fury, he hasn't been stopped due to his poor competition. If his competition was better, he would have done. And when it got better, he was.

If you think Wilder's comp between 2015 & 2017 was good then I'd like tell you that I'm impressed. It takes a special level of delusion to think that.

 

witherspoon via canopener

 

Fair enough.

I do - and I find the absolute dismissal of direct testimony to be a generally unwise practice.

Sounds like a guy, whose legs could have gone for any number of reasons.

Actually, immediately after the fight, it was suggested by Wilder's camp that the cut to his ear may have had an effect on his balance. There was even sensationalist claims that he'd suffered a burst eardrum. This turned out not to be the case and had this been otherwise, then claims of an impact on his equilibrium would have been more than plausible.

It was uncharacteristic of someone with Fury's capabilities to go at Wilder from the outset. Fury took charge of the fight within about a minute and a half of the first round and dominated Wilder from thereon in.

Wilder didn't look particularly firm on his feet before the knockdown and it's not like Wilder doesn't easily go off balance when under assault. He can also, like a lot of boxers, throw himself off-balance when he lunges with his shots. I'm sure Fury's mauling and rag-dolling didn't help either.

The basic logic and biology to which you refer, does not preclude the symptoms you describe as having been caused by a plain old punch to the head. Everything combined might just have been enough to take the starch out Wilder.

In essence, Wilder was overwhelmed.

 

Yep, now if Tim Witherspoon was only 6'9" 270 pound switch-hitting boxer-puncher, with fast feet and slick defensive moves who punched equally hard with either hand ...

Instead of the lazy, 6'3" slow-footed quitter, with a 'crab defense', who couldn't beat Bigfoot Martin, got wasted in a round by Smith and would rather smoke weed than mix it up with Brian Nielsen ... that he was.

It's like when Hearns knocked out Duran. Hearns definitely showed how to beat Duran easily. You just had to be a 6'1" 154-pounder with all-time great power ... and it's easy.

The only problem is you can't just tell people to be a 6'1" Hearns any more than you can tell someone to go out and be Tyson Fury. (Be a 6'9" switch-hitting, boxer-puncher ... dammit. All of you!)

Wilder beats Spoon easily. Witherspoon fought nothing like Fury. And it's not like Witherspoon didn't melt under sudden attack.

Watch Bonecrusher attack Spoon in that first round of their return and tell me you can't see Wilder landing the exact same punches. And Smith didn't have the height, reach, power or frankly the chin of Wilder.

Wilder has better technique than Smith. But Spoon was rocked by the first right hand.

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The first right hand Bonecrusher landed in their return started the end ... it was over 90 seconds later.

 

I don't remember anyone but you saying that.

Even boxing video games make the distinction between chin, the ability to take a body shot, and toughness overall.

In The general forum they make it explicitly clear they are referring to his ability to take a punch in the face when they call him chinny.

Ok so only 2 people dropped wilder in 44 fights. He apparently got off the floor and proceeded to batter sconiers and dropped him 4x. There doesn't appear to be any footage.

Hardly convinces me that he was chinny. Ali was apparently dropped by murderous punchers like Sonny Banks and Chuck Wepner. Foreman had a flash knockdown against Jimmy Young. Tyson was dropped by Danny Williams. Your boy Ezzard Charles had several stoppages to guys who aren't in top 100 for hardest hitters of all time. Are they chinny too?

No I didn't do what you did. The conversation wasn't about the age of Wilder's opponents until you made a comment about him "picking on the elderly" even though both opponents were ranked fighters.

I brought up Joshua and Fury to show that the median age of mist HW fighters nowadays is much higher in general so it's silly to criticize Wilder for it. You have yet to really explain why this is a valid point.

I brought up Ortiz and Stiverne because unlike most of Wilder's competition, one managed to go the distance and the other labded more flush bombs on him than anyone else except Fury. Both of them have decent punching power. Who else are we gonna bring up when discussing Wilder's durability? He completely annihilated just about everyone else (often early) except Fury and he knocked him down too.

Compared to his contemporaries Fury and Joshua his resume isn't that bad, especially Fury. This is a fairly weak era since with not a lot of talent made worse by the fact a lot of guys aren't fighting each other.

Dubois vs Joyce will be the first time two prime ranked fighters faced each other at HW since Whyte vs Parker which was like 4 years ago (outside of wilder vs fury).

The eye test and seeing the effects of his punches tells me Ortiz can bang. His KO% indicates it. Him stopping some of Wladmir's opponents is another clue. His large size combined with superb tecjnique and accuracy means you're definitely getting hurt when he lands.

When I saya fighter can bang, I mean they hit more than hard enough to get your respect and can KO the average guy in their division with their best shots. Doesn't mean i think they're going to make the top 10 all time punchers list.

Scott was knocked down by Ortiz 3x in their fight yet you are typing that you think he could "shrug off" the barrage he used on Wilder? Are you trolling?

Yes, stopped on. His. Feet.

Wilder was never down and out for the count. He was battered in a corner and yet was still fighting back even as the ref stepped in.

Fighters who lack durability don't survive bombardments from skilled huge fighters like Ortiz and proceed to knock them out. Glass jawed fighters usually don't get off the floor to win, and they don't remain on their feet fully conscious and fighting back while being nailed in the face.

You have provided some of the worst examples to make your case.

May and if have different definitions and they are not synonymous.

"May" indicates a possibility. It "may" rain. "If" is always used in a conditional sense.

There would be no point in saying "If I may" if both words were exactly the same.

Between 2015-2017 He became WBC champion basically using nothing but his jab and lateral movement. He showed he could go the distance without gassing and had skills beyond a crazy right hand despite what people keep repeating.

He was The first person to knock out undefeated Washington who was ranked in the WBC top 10. Washington was a last minute replacement because Wilder was originally supposed to fight Andrzej Wawrzyk but he tested positive for stanazolol.

He stopped Arreola faster than Vitali did despite having a broken hand and a torn muscle.

The 2nd Stiverne fight only happened because Povetkin, whom you yourself claim was a better opponent, popped dirty for PEDs twice. Once when he was scheduled to face Wilder and again when he was in an eliminator to face Stiverne himself to become the WBC mandatory. Not Wilder's fault.

Wilder was also set to face Ortiz in 2017 but he tested positive for a banned substance amd it got delayed. For the record Wilder said he didn't care and was willing to let it carry on.

^that's honestly not bad compared to Fury and Joshua. Could have been better, but not the worst 2 year stretch considering all the last minute cancellations.

So this whole narrative that Wilder has such a bad resume and never went out of his way to face anyone good is just plain bull****. In 3 separate occasions when he attempted to step up between 2015-2017 his opponent got caught with a banned substance. Yet somehow he is constantly blamed for this.

You can make it 4 actually if you include Fury abd Hughie's boar meat fiasco. Wilder still fought him anyway. Seems like the problem isn't Wilder.

 

LOL. Didn't you hear ... chin means body.

Ear means toe.

And losing to the unbeaten world heavyweight champion is worse than losing to Bigfoot Martin in the midst of his 3 wins-34 losses streak.

At least it does when discussing Wilder.

You must have missed the email.

(LOL)

It's cringe-worthy.

In case you haven't noticed, in classic, Wilder loses to everyone in every thread, no matter who it is, no matter how bad that other guy lost and no matter how bad the fighters were that other guy lost to.

 

Within the first 3 posts of this thread I realized it's a self help group. Bruno miles better than Wilder, coetzee better than luis Ortiz. Just lol