Tim Witherspoon W 12 Greg Page 1984

Are we back to the old dogmatic " Holmes ducked this guy"argument? Looking back over the years, a bunch of us really beat the crud out of that debate, particularly around 2007 if I recall... John Thomas, Mendoza ( formerly Dr. Z ), myself, Sonny's jab ( no longer here ) and several others must have scrutinized this topic to the point of looking up fighter's birth records and the names of their first born nieces and nephews...

My position has always been that Holmes opperated within the set of rules and politics that dictated that scene at the time.. Michael Dokes was a fellow king employee who was under the same promotional umbrella and was never intended by the kind's to fight Holmes. He was being groomed to take his place.. Greg Page emerged as the number one contender for about 9 months and began losing to everyone and their brother, while Holmes was busy with breaking his ties with Don King in 1983. Gerrie Coetzee signed to fight Holmes but it was COETZEE'S people, not Holmes' who backed out at the last minute. Tate was in the spotlight for about 6 months before losing to both Weaver and Berbick then falling off the face of the earth... I can see a valid argument accusing Holmes of ducking Pinklon Thomas with the one question in mind of whether or not he was a mandatory for Holmes' IBF title between 1984-1985. Basically what you had was a crowd of contenders and or fragment belt holders who couldn't stay on a winning streak longer than maybe 2 or 3 fights, before losing to one another, leaving little or no time for a unification ever to materialize.. Hell, the WBA title changed hands on some 9 times between 1978 and 1987, with most of its holders having but one defense or no defenses at all..

Bottom line, it would have been nice to have seen Holmes fight some of these guys in place of Lucien Rodriguez or Scott Frank, but the " ducking" argument gets blown way out of proportion...

 

Correct.

 

Amen. The man fought plenty of very good fighters, and any reign lasting as long as his did must by definition earn respect, but there will always be those agenda-driven tools that will mention Lucien Rodriguez.

As if half of Joe Louis' opponents could've beaten him.

They need to take a serious step backward and collect themselves.

 

It is rather comical when one thinks about it.

His detractors base their whole argument on the fact that he never got around to facing maybe two guys ( and to no fault of his own ) who had maybe two or three good wins a piece at best, lost to every dick Harry and Tom, plus were washed up by the time they were 28. Furthermore, they have been ranting about it on here for years as if this insignificant burp of a trivial factoid had any historical relevance on the level of Dempsey ducking Wills, Sullivan ducking Jackson, Bowe ducking Lewis or Louis missing an entire generation of the murder's row.... Bad, bad stuff.....

 

Damn straight.


Really, if you look at any fighter's record, you can pick it apart in some way. Not one single fighter since the inception of boxing is immune to this, yet so many seem to want to make Holmes the poster boy for cowardice. Everyone who believes this is a ****ing idiot.

 

It does make me laugh to the point of nearly losing bladder control... That the man who was knocked out by Mark Wills and beaten by David Bey is somehow the same guy who made Holmes turn yellow..

 

I agree man, but for the record, I'm not saying that Holmes didn't avoid him. Not for a second. I think he plainly did.

I'm suggesting that's entirely beside the point, and completely irrelevant in discussion of his worth as a fighter and champion.

No one in boxing is in this thing for anything but money; if someone is offering you two million for Page and a million for Marvis Frazier, whom would you fight (knowing that more money awaits you down the line should you win)?

No one fights so that they can go up the charts in Suzie Q's or Rocky Jim's list of favorites. They're making their own life and doing for themselves and their families, as is every other fighter.

That said, I would dare anyone to compare Holmes' list of opponents with any of their favorites. Unless the name is Ali, the list of foes is pretty favorable with any heavyweight champ in history.

P.S.......Holmes beats Page no matter when they fight.

 

See my answer above for the big "so what" response. Let me know if a shred of it sinks in.

 

Holmes looked unimpressive against inferior opposition. I don't think it's too unreasonable to say Page would give him a run for his money

 

Exactly! Isn't that what an eliminator is for, to determine the next mandatory challenger to a champion's belt? Holmes pulled a Bowe and dumped his WBC belt rather than face Greg Page. But if guys like you and I bring it up, we are Holmes bashers and totally misconstrued. Page was hot and cold; he was hot when he knocked out Snipes. Talking about Page's losses down the road or insignificant to who or what Greg Page was at the end of 1983. The same goes for Pinklon Thomas and Michael Dokes, two fighters who squandered their talent and suffered many embarrasing defeats but who were, nonetheless, talented, capable fighters. Holmes basically opted to fight green, inexperienced guys (many of whom turned out to be total crap in the long run as well) instead of the more experienced guys. Tim Witherspoon got blasted out by Bonecrusher; did that take away from the fact that he gave Holmes hell and, in the minds of many people, beat Holmes? So, Greg Page would go on to lose to David Bey and Berbick, but does that mean Page was no good when he was Holmes' mandatory or that Page could not have upset Holmes? The bottom line is that Holmes chose to fight Frazier, Rodriguez, et.al because they were not as big a threat to Holmes' belt as were guys like Page, Thomas, and Dokes. Guys like you and me have hammered this home ad nauseam. It's only the Holmes lackeys who fail to see the light!

P.S...I'm still a Holmes fan, but I'm not a lackey. He wasn't the only champion to duck contenders, but duck he most surely did. His reign post Cooney was tepid!

 

Witherspoon and Williams pushed Holmes to the limit. Those two guys were not viewed as legitimate heavyweight challengers at the time.

 

Holmes ducked fighting all the top fighters post Cooney. These are just the facts as stated by Larry himself after the Witherspoon fight/fright. He said he believed he'd earned the right to fight whoever he liked on the way down and he'd take it easy, he didn't owe anyone anything.

Revisionist history has the likes of Witherspoon being thrust forward as top fighters Holmes fought, but the fact is the Holmes bout and after is where he forged his reputation. Witherspoon was a massive underdog and not given any semblance of hope. Larry told him after he'd never get another shot.

Despite all this i rate Holmes 4 or 5 in history. I had him as high as 3 for ages. Undoubtably top 5, but i can see why others won't give him a free pass based on earlier work.

Great fighter, with ridiculous determination and heart.

 

Yeah but people love to camouflage the facts by looking forward to the time Page was beaten by Bey claiming that was his shot for the title. Well, either that or they just don't have a clue