Tim Witherspoon W 12 Greg Page 1984

Holmes was 33 when he fought Witherspoon and Tim, despite his inexperience, was in the best condition of his life and fought the best fight of his life. That being said in gut check time Holmes out gutted him. Holmes was close to 35 when he fought a physically prime, undefeated Williams ... a giant with an extensive amateur background and tremendous physical skills ... let's get real boys ...

 

Perhaps you can tell us Page's significant period of dominance ...

He was brutalized and embarrassed by Trevor Berbick on the Holmes Cooney under card ... he was manhandled and exposed as a highly touted amateur .

IN the following 18 months he beats Tillis who had lost to Weaver and who was just crushed by Thomas. He beats club fighters Frazier and Kellar. He beats Snipes, a good top ten contender at best who had been stopped by Holmes and beaten by Witherspoon ...then Page disappoints again v.s. Witherspoon and Bey, not only losing but losing like a dog ... fat and out of shape ... so basically the great Greg Page lost to Berbick, Witherspoon and Bey, three fighters Holmes defeated in the same window of time ... and this was in his prime.

Let's get real on th Greg Page argument. Enough of revising history. Page , RIP, was a highly touted amateur who somehow managed to avoid fighting Stevenson ... I vividly remember whenever the US was boxing Cuba Page, who was the standard heavyweight, always missed that match up ... Jimmy Clark always filled in ... as a pro he was poorly condirtioned and a general disappointment, coming in fat and out of shape against Witherspoon and Tubbs in a series of heavyweight fights that were televised and highly ridiculed for their flabby pecs and horrendously slow pace. None of them, Witherspoon, Tubbs or Page ever put together a significant string of highly inspiring victories that fed public demand for a Holmes fight. They were lazy and unmotivated, blaming Don King for everything. However, he did the same w Holmes but Larry was a winner and did not let it break him. IT was only when they got old and needed the paychecks that Page and Witherspoon got second looks and fan sympathy as they attempted comebacks ...

Deal with that.

 

You're perfectly correct in almost your entire post , and Anthony is definitely 100% spot on per Witherspoon.


Williams only win of any note was over a washed up Tillis so i'm pretty sure he's right there too. Some may have given him a chance due to Holmes being well past it.

 

Makes you wonder why Holmes wouldn't take $2.55 million dollars to fight such an easy beat doesn't it, choosing instead to give away the title he had owned near forever :huh

 

No wonder to it ... all documented. He was done being dominated by DK. He reached the point that he fought who he felt like .... IF there was a five or ten million dollar purse he would have fought any of them but since there was zero public demand, since Page, Witherspoon, Tubbs and Dokes kept losing and putting in poor performances he selected the opponents he wanted and laughed his way to the bank ... still, he did fight and defeat Witherspoon, Bey, Williams and Bonechrusher in this period along with Frazier and Frank ... all were top contenders.

 

Top contenders? Surely you jest. They were mostly a bunch of crap or underfledged fighters. Bey had only ever beaten an out of shape Page who you consider an also ran, so how could he be a top contender? He lost 5 of his next 6 fights post Holmes. Witherspoon was about a 5-1 underdog. Smiths only claim to fame was a lucky punch that took out a Bruno that had handily outboxed him for 9 1/2 rounds. I'm not ever going to acknowledge Frank and poor Frazier had just 10 fights when dad fed him to the slaughter.

Here is what one noted sportswriter said after the Williams fight, bemoaning the sorry state of the heavyweights

RULE ONE - Larry Holmes will not fight anyone meaner than his accountant.

He doesn't want to fight tough anymore,but he wants to be recognized as a tough fighter. He's on automatic, attempting to break Rocky Marciano's record of 49-0. Holmes next opponent will be drawn at the Sisters of Everlasting Compassion raffle. Rocky Marciano's last fight was against Archie Moore, which sounds like a good idea to Holmes.


The above was the prevailing feeling of the time, it was well scribed in various places.

 

I do not jest.

Writers write because they have to fill copy. Everything has to be taken with a grain of salt.

You admit Page was a non-entity so let's put him aside. YOu dismiss Bey but he did just defeat Page in his previous fight ...

He had already beaten Witherspoon who went on to lose to Pinklon THomas one year later in another uninspiring performance.

Tubbs was a non-entity at this point, a few years before his flabby prime.

Holmes had destroyed Snipes already.

Coetzee had lost to Tate, been KO'ed by Weaver, Lost to Page , lost to Snipes ( a bad decision but still a even fight) and drew w Thomas ... not exactly a stellar resume.

Dokes was on his binge to oblivion, getting a gift draw v.s. Weaver and was KO'ed by Coetzee ..

My question is what big fan based demand existed for a fight against any of these inconsistent jokers ? There was zero. In addition, Williams was a huge, young physically gifted opponent. No denying that. Smith did not get lucky with one punch against Bruno. You're simply making up facts. He took a beating from Bruno for nine rounds and showed tremendous heart and stamina by punching his lights out in the 10th . Smith also went on to KO Witherspoon in one round, beat Ribalta and crush Weaver. At 6'4" and 235 he was another powerful giant. These were tough challenges for an aging champion.


So in the last two years of a seven year reign Holmes cherry picked his opponents. Louis had a ton of soft touches. Ali fought Wepner and Dunn and Cooperman and Evangelista. Marciano, in a five fight reign fought Cockell. Dempsey fought no one but a 32 year old Gibbons. Patterson fought terrible competition his whole first reign. Charles fought Barone, Oma and a host of aging light heavyweights. Johnson fought carefully selected oppionents his whole reign ... so JT, I ask, at what standard are you trying to gage Larry ?

 

Page was not out of shape against Bey, John.He turned up for that one and still got beat.

 

Holmes needed king to make the fight and they were in the process of parting ways in 1983, due to Larry getting tired of having his checks pinched. Making one million against Marvis Frazier and scott Frank was more lucrative than making two million against Page, given that the bulk of his paycheck wasn't going to go into King's pocket.. Fighting Page as opposed to Frazier and Frank would have been penny wise and dollar foolish...

As for the scar on his legacy for "throwing" away a title. Well make of it what you will.. I can concur that it certainly counts against him.. My only problem with it though, is that some have used it to sum up his whole career, when in fact this failure to face a mandatory was nothing on the level of Bowe ducking Lewis, Dempsey ducking wills, or Patterson ducking half of the available contenders during his reign.. The public's interest in seeing Holmes vs Page was not nearly as high as it was in some of those other match ups. Its also funny how the WBC was the one organization who's president was in King's back pocket, and as soon as Holmes flipped King the bird his title was lifted... Makes one wonder......

 

Page knew it was his last chance at the belt, and if he wasn't with Don King, he probably wouldn't have gotten the shot.If Page came in under 225, 224, he would've been a real mother to deal with.The one true time he came in in shape he was weakened and dealing with the broken thumb issue.

 

It was a very disappointing time in the heavyweight division for me. I was always used to the top fighters fighting the best.

With the split divisions it gave fighters and promoters a reason to navigate. Holmes fought a 15 fight unknown Witherspoon, a 10 fight Marvis and a 10-2-2 Spinks, 14-0-1 Smith or 13 fight Ocasio. I don't want to get into all the good fights that could have been made but I do feel Holmes should have stepped up to the plate and fought the best. I felt there was a certain type of fighter that could have beaten him and he or the promotion found there way around it by convenience...I was shocked to see Snipes drop him after watching Snipes get dropped 2 X by Coetzee in a robbery the fight before but did not Michael Spinks would have been the one to beat him in Michaels first fight at heavyweight

As far as Bey, he lost like 8 of his next 10 fights and never impressed me. Page in top form was talented and had good power in his right hand but was sporadic and rarely in top form.

There were not many complete fighters at the time but I feel Holmes could have possibly been beaten at certain points by Thomas,Coetzee,Dokes,Tate,Page because of styles and Witherspoon (another underachiever) Williams,Weaver may have beaten Holmes in a rematch had Larry given them the chance.

I still rate Larry top 10 and I think he had a lot of heart and a great jab. I met him and like him but I have to be honest in the era that I lived and saw as an adult with a good grasp of the boxing game at that time.

 

Fair enough but we do know that the 15 fight Witherspoon was a terifically talented fighter with speed, defense, size , power , a great chin and on that night fought the fight of his life so I feel the focus should not be on Tim's number of fights but that a 33 year old champ was able to summon it up and defeat a young lion on his own unmotivated night. Most would have lost on a night like that but Holmes did not.

I see nothing in Coetzee, Thomas, Dokes or Tate that give them a shot at anything but a shot Holmes ... Tate would have fought a prime Holmes and I doubt he survives it .. Coetzee and Dokes as well ... Larry was bigger, had a longer reach and basically did everything better. Thomas was to me a poorly conditioned , one armed fighter. Tremendously over rated. Snipes landed a fluke shot but lost every second before and after the knockdown and was pummeled ... Yes he fought Leon but it is fair and accurate to say it was the best Leon ever ... Leon had just come off his extremely impressive performance stopping a very dangerous Bernardo Mercardo and many people were giving Spinks a shot against Larry ... of course they were wrong ...

I grew up watching every heavyweight fight of that era and clearly remember than none of them were ever considered anything but the other guy and that Holmes was widely recognized as the only heavyweight champ. There is no doubt in the final 18 months of his reign he said fu-k it to the powers that be but Bey, Williams and Smith were still big strong guys coming in off big fights ...

 

As John Thomas pointed out in an earlier post, Larry Holmes himself stated, on numerous occasions, that he felt he had earned the right to take easy fights and to fight who he wanted to fight. Holmes even admitted after the Bonecrusher fight how he (Holmes) was tired of fighting big, strong fighters and was now only going to target smaller, less capable fighters. That came straight from Holmes' mouth. So, obviously, Holmes fought guys he thought he could handle. Holmes didn't select Witherspoon or Williams because he viewed them as being dangerous, deserving contenders, did he? No, of course not! He thought they'd be easy touches. And he didn't fight Page, Thomas, or even rematch Witherspoon or Williams because he knew better! Revisionists get way out of hand at times! Let's be real here. Holmes was a great fighter, but he ducked way too many fighters!

 

Your facts are not correct .. after Bonecrusher he fought Bey who was not small and who had just beat Page and then Williams who was a giant, young and very athletically talented. The he fought a small guy, Spinks and lost but at the time he was already 35 and had been champ for seven years .. all this talk about who he should have fought but there was not one outstanding contender that he did not fight ...

 

I think you are correct Steve. Everyone of the these men had very good overall kills and excellent chins.