Tim Witherspoon W 12 Greg Page 1984

The truth and the distinction between Holmes and the Louis,Marciano,and other Champions who fought the best available at least 80-90% of the time and re matched tough fights that some thought they lost.....Holmes was a disappointment because I and many others fans wanted to see him engage and rematch the best and he did not.


As far as David Bey his record after the Holmes fight in 15 fights he only won 3 and was KO'd 8 times in his losses...Page had the ability to soar past anything Bey could do and thus Larry surrendered a title by refusing to fight Greg

JT is correct to the facts of the time

By the way Page is only a small part of the equation the fact that Coetzee had Snipes 2X down in the elimination fight and was robbed Snipes went on to Land that right hand on Holmes (could Coetzee have done it better?) Pinklon Thomas, Weaver, Dokes, Witherspoon, Tate would have been better match-ups over the different time frames than those that were chosen....Leon Spinks was KO'd in 1 rd. by Coeteze and Spinks got the shot at Holmes after 3 wins and a draw, his best win was over Bernard Mercado (who was already KO'd by John Tate and Mike Weaver before the Spinks fight.

Larry picked the weaker challenges and I can understand going for the money but there is a time as a sportsman and a champion you have to fight the best. Larry was great but these avoidance of the best on numerous occasions really should not be overlooked.

 

Holmes was a classless jerk at times. HIs comments regarding Thomas' drug problems were rotten as you say. When Holmes got his butt kicked by Tyson, many people were overjoyed! Holmes could never give any other fighters credit. He always came across as very insecure.

 

You skipped the key component that I highlighted .. post 33 .. I guess a small over site as persepctive and relevance really don't matter ...:rof you are a notorious Holmes hater and very predictable in your revision of the hard facts.

 

You obviously know very little about Holmes, spewing 101 nonsense.

 

Thanks for your insight.

 

I know enough to not drink Holmes kool-aid!

 

Holmes spent nearly all of '84 trying to make a unification fight with Coetzee, which was probably the biggest and best HW fight he could've taken at that time - far bigger than a fight with Page would've been. That's the exact opposite of a "stuff everyone attitude." In fact, the Holmes-Coetzee fight was billed as "The People's Choice" for that very reason.

Whether he actually "avoided" Page is dependent on the reason. Substituting one opponent with another who is even bigger money and/or bigger demand is not "avoiding" anyone.

And what's wrong with that? There's no reason for him or anyone else involved in the sport to have to be "in bed" with people like that other than when it suits them. They don't own the sport.

Yes he was - he was rated in the top 3 by The Ring, just as Page had been in '83.

Just as was the case with Bey after Holmes' lackluster effort against Bonecrusher.

"Many boxing experts have said this fight could produce an upset in the same manner as the fight Leon Spinks won against the aging Muhammad Ali in 1978."
-LA Times, March 3, 1985

"Despite the bookmakers firmly favoring Holmes, many reliable experts were strongly predicting an upset by Bey. They felt that his relative lack of experience - just 14 pro fights - was more than compensated for by a combination of his heavy punching power and dwindling life in Holmes' legs."
-Vancouver Sun, March 16, 1985

Just as Bey had been a renowned amateur fighter upon turning pro.

...OR to have exposed him, depending on whose views of the fight you choose to give credence to.

Just as Bey was believed to have "turned the corner" and was ready to fulfill his potential after beating Page.

Why should he need anything more than Page "behind him" if Page was as good and highly regarded as you make him out to be here?

 

It was JT who CRITICIZED (and rightfully so IMO) the very same use of hindsight that you are using here.

Except when they were in the ring together, apparently.

 

Look the reality here is that Holmes, post Cooney had been champ for five years and was done being dictated to ... He was robbed time and again by KIng and manipulated by Suliman and the WBC. As champion he had been forced to take far less than ALi and purse parity with Cooney. KIng shaved his purses on a regular basis ... after beating Cooney in front of the world Holmes simply had enough .. he was 33, he had defended his title twelve times and he decided he would fight on his own terms ... that being said he still fought tough guys . some were young like Witherspoon, Frazier and Williams, some were raw like Bonecrusher and Bey but all these guys were rated contenders ... in addition, all were far better than many of the men other champs defended against .. in addition, the bottom line that JT, Bummy and gang are manipulating was that none of the group of Page, Dokes, Thomas or Coetzee ever established any significant rhythm over more than a year or so without decisive losses to qualify them as fan favorites and build up a big fight purse for Holmes. IF there was a big money fight out there you could be sure Homes would have jumped all over it .. to this day he'd jump into the ring for a million dollar purse, that's Larry ... however, at the time , he would take 1.5 that he knew he was getting direct oposed to 2.2 thru DK which he knew he might never collect ... it was a business to him ..

 

bottom line is that Page was erratic but when he was on he was a tough guy to fight when he showed up in good form, he was on a real low vs Bey (Bey's only win vs top 50) and that was still a one round fight on 2 of the judges scorecards, but as I said Page was only a small part of the picture and is only really mentioned because Larry gave up a title not to fight him.

I think Larry holds the record for giving title shots to people with 16 fights or under and for fighting in a decade with the most avoidance of number 1 contenders, never unifying against co-champs or granting a rematch after a disputed or tough win.

That being said I think he was the best of an era but that is my opinion and I wish he would have proved against the best.

At this point the best fighters he fought were Cooney, an older Norton and Michael Spinks who he lost to and an older version of Larry fought Tyson

Smith, Witherspoon,Bey,Ocasio,Williams,L.Spinks,Marvis, all had under 16 fights and when he fought Weaver an luckily escaped Weaver had 9 losses and 18 wins and was considered a real long shot.

The best fighters a prime Holmes fought were Cooney (never fought over 8 rds.) Shavers(who lost every big fight) and Norton in a life and death fight (Norton Past it) most of the other guys of note that Holmes fought were no-name fighters prior to fighting Holmes and made they name giving Holmes a scare but they were not the best of the era IMO

 

I have no reason to manipulate. I lived the era and was a fan of Holmes but have no reason to leave out the facts.

Let me ask you did Holmes EVER rematch a hard or disputed fight?

Did Holmes ever Unify a title against a co-champ

Did Holmes give up a title not to fight Page

Did Holmes always fight rated guys or and unbiased top 10 contender in defenses?

Do you really think he fought the Best of his ERA?

 

The other thing regarding those title challengers is that they were a ton of sterner tests out there. Instead we got fights like Snipes in 81. Leroy Jones. Scott Ledoux--anybody picking Scott with his left hand by his waist to slip jabs in that one?

They were other guys to fight. The guys he fought instead, up thru Carl Williams had absolutely minimal 10 round experience. These guys had zero big fight experience and were barely 10 round guys. Most were as seasoned as Frank or Williams or Bey or Smith and the list goes on and on. The first time Larry fought a guy that had been winning big fights consistently, since Norton, was Mike Spinks.

 

That's because the heavyweight devision was full of fat coke fiends and unskilled labourers that were unable to put a sustained claim on being the most proficient contenders.He did most of what he could have done with King hanging around manipulating everything.

 

This post is an absolute zero.

 

This post ,and J T's above it are essential ,and relevant when assessing Holmes , I have him at no5 all time, but he did avoid the better young studs as he aged.