Tim Witherspoon W 12 Greg Page 1984

i never thought much of Greg page. just a second-rate Ali impersinator. talented but that style just wont work aganst most world class fighters .. unless you are muhammad Ali !
page always bouncing around with his hands down and showing off too much. witherspoon outworked him.

yes Larry Holmes DID duck greg Page.
Holmes after he fought cooney he often said he wanted easy fights. said stuff like he would not fight good fighters for less than 10 million.
et.c

 

There you go. I can't see how Holmes' apologists can continue to deny that Holmes ducked many fighters, including Greg Page. From '83 onwards, Holmes selected opponents that he thought he could handle and defeat easily. Just because Witherspoon and Williams turned out to be tough fights does not justify Holmes selecting them as opponents in the first place.

 

As much as I feel Page could've given Holmes a helluva tussle / challenge in Nov. 1983, I gotta say that I would favor the March 1985 Holmes who TKO'd Bey over the 1985 version of Page who looked lethargic / lackluster in losing his WBA belt to Tubbs.... Holmes looked good against Bey once he got warmed-up and into his groove prior to stopping Bey..... Rds 8 thru 10 was truly "Holmes Sweet Holmes." Meanwhile, Page looked like **** while sleepwalking to a decision loss to Tubbs...... The kicker is, Greg Page was a solid 7 or 8 years YOUNGER than Lawrence Holmes.... Yes, '85 Holmes whips Page's fat ass...

SR.BILL

 

After reviewing this for about the thousandth time, I am leaning towards agreeing with john Thomas and a few others that Holmes did in fact take advantage of the political climate to find a way out of facing the best from 1983-1985... At that same time however, his reign prior to that point was fairly solid, and he did still take on men in the latter stage who were at least mainstream guys, regardless of their not necessarily being #1 calibur....

 

Hell with it..... I just popped in my master tape from '85 of "Holmes-Bey" on HBO......... A good tussle on regular HBO........ Too bad boxing has dipped to bogus levels of dribble in Y2K.... Here in 2011, this would be PPV..... Christ... Bey was game for 5 rds, but than the great Holmes took charge.... Holmes TKO 10 Bey....
:thumbsup

This '85 version of Holmes beats the Page who choked against Tubbs...:hey

MR.BILL:hat

 

What about the fired up Page from one fight earlier that left Coetzee prone Bill? Would have been a better tussle.

 

Not automatically, Johnny boy..... You gotta understand I already was picking Holmes to "Carve-Up" Coetzee in June 1984 in Vegas had the fight occured as slated in late '83...... Page simply battered Coetzee for Holmes..... I'm also guessin' since Tony Tubbs was focused for a brief year during that time, had he been at his good weight of 229 in Dec. 1984, he too would've clobbered Coetzee.... Coetzee had power and looked awesome at 215 for Dokes, but by late 1984 he was rusty and off-key when the more talented Page KTFO out of him way down south in Africa....

MR.BILL:deal

 

lets be honest it wasnt only lucien rodriguez who was a lousy challenger for larry holmes. there were many others. truth is - holmes fought lots of lousy challengers and too many novices and even admitted that he was looking for easy fights later in his reign. the generally low level of opposition was not his fault though.

 

A ridiculous statement ... there is a huge difference between fighting young, highly talented fighters like a Witherspoon, Bonecrusher Smith or a Williams than a Cooperman or a Richard Dunn ... insiders knew who these opponents were ... Witherspoon had fought on television and looked terrific and was being hailed as an up and comer ... Williams the same as well as having a huge amateur career ... SMith had just destroyed highly touted , previously undefeated Frank Bruno on national television ..... even Marvis Frazier had an extensive amateur background and was coming off some big televised wins ... all were young, talented , very big (Marvis aside) and tough ... Larry was an old fighter fighting young guys unlike a Marciano fighting old , small guys ...

 

Funny but if the shoe was on the other foot and Marciano was fighting novice fighters like Holmes did instead of experienced Champions (like Larry avoided) the same guys would be chirping against him

Holmes 47-0 vs Carl Williams 16-0, Holmes 42-0 vs Witherspoon 15-0, Holmes 46-0 vs David Bey 14-0, Holmes 45-0 vs James Smith 14-1, 44-0 vs 10-0 Marvis and in reality none of these guys had great careers after the Holmes fight, Witherspoon the best of the lot but most of his wins over competition were by SD and he lost a few the same way and was never spectacular.

Bey lost like 10 of his next 12 fights 8 by KO, Smith was a big man but scared of his own blood and got the name Bone clutch-er after fighting Tyson

Point is Larry picked novices and trial horses and almost lost to some of them and his promoter owned most of the judges or the ABC ORGS

 

A lot of those inexperienced guys had beaten someone who was much more title worthy though. It is not Holmes's fault that the people he supposedly avoided were beaten in the warm up fights. The inexperienced Ossie Ocasio, for example, twice beat Jimmy Young. Trevor Berbick beat John Tate. Smith beat Frank Bruno. Bey beat Page. It would have been really nice had it been Jimmy Young instead of Ocasio or John Tate instead of Trevor Berbick. But the more talented fighters of that era, aside from Larry Holmes, had a habit of being lazy and would go and lose to inferior fighters, blowing the bigger and probably better fights.

I also blame the promoters much more than I blame the fighters. At that level no fighter is afraid of another fighter, none. Despite what some might say, Holmes was not afraid of anyone. Why would he be? Don't bring this vulnerable to right hands crap into this either, that is easily one of the most overblown things on this website. I'd bet millions that had he never fought Bonecrusher Smith, Tim Witherspoon, Ray Mercer, or Oliver McCall, it'd be predicted by many that he would be decked in at least 2 of those fights because they had hard right hands and it is so easy to hit Larry with a right hand.

Holmes is criticized (probably rightfully so, legacy wise) for fighting Marvis Frazier and Scott Frank instead of Greg Page. Why do people not question why Holmes got more money to fight Frazier and Frank than he did Greg Page? Wouldn't that fall on the promoters more than Holmes?

Throughout his entire career, you would find Holmes in fights that gave him the most money. People said that in his comeback after he had already lost he suddenly was willing to take on the best. Well, in the 1990s the best was where the most money was.

 

true they were more worthy than Coopman and Dunn but they were still chosen because they were novices and reckoned to be relatively easy pickings at that time.
Witherspoon was judged by many to have been extremely lucky to have got a decision over the only contender he's yet faced - Renaldo snipes. He wasnt expected to do well aganst holmes.
carl williams had been decked by james tillis - the best fighter he'd yet faced
Smith was outboxed for 9 rounds against the inexperienced young bruno (again, the only fighter of real note he had yet faced) and caught bruno in the last round.

the pattern is quite clear. Holmes was choosing novices with perhaps one qualifyingh result on short resume and clear signs of needing further seasoning.
he wouldnt have fought witherspoon if he had known spoon was as much of a threat as a weaver or a page. after 1982 holmes was very open about this.

 

Yes, considerable was the ringcraft and talent of Bonecrusher.

 

In honesty Bill if he beat the Young who came into the ring against Ocasio with man Boobs and completely out of condition it would not mean anything, and again I know it was a very weak era. The argument is that there were co-champions that would have generated Big Paydays at a particular time. Tate, Dokes,Weaver,Coetzee,Page,Thomas and Holmes did not chose or seek to unify, he took the road to least Resistance and when one of these Youngsters did give him a good battle he refused to give them a rematch ,Witherspoon,Williams and in rugged fights where he had a tough time such as Weaver (especially right after the Tate win) and Norton could have been immediate because it was a close fight and good payday.

Again I am not saying it is for certain they are all Larry's fault but I do think there was a large amount of navigation to get through that era with the avoidance of fighting so many in the top rung of a weak era.

 

Holmes ended up without his WBC belt 100% because he would not take Greg Page on. This is well documented in umpteen places and pure fact. He did not duck the Page fight to chase Coetzee, he ducked it to fight Frank and then Frazier despite being told he would be stripped.

If you think they were well up to scratch, well, you're entitled to your opinion. As i said, there was bigger money out there for bigger fights.

Well fortunately it is well documented in a novel not primarily about boxing. This is why so few people know about the events. The insider actually had little to do with boxing excepting some dealings with Coetzee and indeed King.

If it was speculation or heresay i would have said as much.

Holmes getting more for fighting Frazier had nothing to do with the general publics eye. Do you seriously believe the public thought Page was worth 2.55mil and Frazier 3mil or whatever it was?!?!?! A small guy with all of 10 fights? Seriously? It was politics and oppoertunity, pure and simple. It was a special one off deal put together by Murad and co.

Larry Holmes was the WBC "Champion". This was the title he held, the only one. Page was number 1 contender in the WBC and it was Holmes time for his mandatory. It was Holmes obligation to take on Page. Of course he failed his obligation as champion.

Lets put this one to bed, it's been lingering too long.

Bey fought Holmes as a 4-1 underdog. Holmes - Page opened at 8-5.

Larry fought Bey for $1.5mil. He refused to fight Page for $2.5mil!

Larry fought Bey with Don King promoting!!!!!!

Do you think Larry shares your view Bey was a comparable challenge etc?

If the above doesn't convince you there's nothing more i can say on the matter. It's all there in black and white.

Larry had already had quite some time to look at Dokes, both as a challenger and as a unification. He had never been interested.

Dokes was good, and being black he wasn't going to command the crazy money Holmes wanted for top shelf opponents. My comment stands, Holmes was not interested in Dokes.

True enough, but i've gone at length as to the why's of Holmes wanting Coetzee.

Once, and the motives have been well spelt out. The money was ridiculous.

I'll pay that. Page had lost by then of course.

What you said was this

Was Frank bigger money than Page? No. Neither were bigger demand either, not that it should need be stated.

Holmes failed his obligation as champion in order to fight two easier opponents.

I've put this one to bed just above once and for all already. It's conclusive Page was a more credible opponent based on odds and Holmes own smaller purseaccepted allied to the fact he fought Bey for King.

It was the prevalent one. you can dig up opposing views on anything. Elvis is alive, we didn't walk on the moon, etc, etc. The prevalent view was Page would still make it.

No comparison here, jeez. Page had come back with two impressive wins, one extremely so to offset the defeat.

Snipes had come back with a superb win over a hot Berbick to offset his.

Page at the time of going in against Bey had not offset his poor loss to Witherspoon.