Time to lay to rest the nonsense that Jack Johnson feasted on smaller opponents.

Very few, I may agree with (actually i dont know). Reading the early Australian results and articles, it seems that guys like Foley and Mace, and ultimately Fitz, Jackson, etc had a knowledge which almost seemed to have them placed on a higher field of knowledge (presumably on par withtoday and some would even argue ahead). It does seem that fighters from those gyms did perform better, but then again it is probably just that these are the gyms where the best fighers (maybe everyone) migrated to. Today, No one knows anything new and a each trainer, while i am sure most are very good, is pretty much the same as most others.

 

Lots of good trainers around in the 1890's. Tommy Ryan, Spider Kelly, Muldoon, Donovan, Carroll and loads more. Interestingly Choynski, Griffin, armstrong were highly rated as trainers even while still active. There has been trainers and gyms and training camps since first there were boxers.

 

The objective criticism on Johnson is not that he failed to face large heavyweights. Its his title run, the blatant ducking of facing the best while he was champion, and rather dubious results in his prime to near prime.

 

Nothing wrong with his title run, as recent threads have conclusively proved,[see Janitor's one]. He beat just about everybody except for Choynsky and a debatable dec loss to Hart.
You can fairly criticise his defences though.

Question.
IF Johnson had rematched Langford,Jeanette,and McVey, while he was champ ,AND come into the ring in top shape, who gets your money?

 

Denver Ed Martin's knockout win over Hank Griffin(before griffin beat jack johnson) is an underrated win.

 

Yet you rate dempsey highly? Dempsey had blatant ducking of facing the best while champion( at least johnson beat those men pre title, demspey never even fought greb, wills), Dempsey had some dubious results in his prime to near prime(KO 1 by Flynn, L to Meehan, Draw with Miske)

 

He did not beat everyone except for Choynski and Hart. He had some other losses. And he had some draws that could be viewed as losses, even in his prime.

The sad thing is we have to play what if Johnson had rematched Langford,Jeanette,and McVey, while he was champ. He ducked them as champion.

I get the hunch Johnson had a strong but limited McVey's number.

Jeanette vs Johnson could have gone either way, and if was 20+ rounds I do believe Jeanette's work rate and stamina would get him a decision based on Johnson's preferred style. I do think that a novice Jeanette did well vs Johnson.

Langford vs Johnson could have been 50/50. I am more impressed with Langford on film. His power, aggression and skills could certainly knock Johnson out or put him into a defensive shell.

Let's say 1-1-1 vs the big three. I am out until perhaps Monday. See ya.

 

I agree with everything you wrote because it is true, and a negative on Dempsey. See how easy it is to be honest?

I authored a thread why I believe dempsey should be highly rated. It does not belong in this thread. Check the archives.

 

Johnson was nowhere near his prime when he fought choynski. Johnson was weighing around 175lb at the time. He was nowwhere near the 205lb monster he became in 1910.

 

Janitor's thread,with in put from some fine posters , has showed that Johnson was the standout fighter prior to his winning the title, he beat just about everybody who mattered, except those I mentioned.
Playing what if?
What if Jeffries had fought Johnson before he retired?
What if Mcvey's backers had come up with the dough to challenge Burns?

Johnson went 20rds with Mcvey and knocked him out in the last round. McVey went life and death with Jeanette, literally.

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Everyone over 156 pounds was classed as a heavyweight in those days anyway, so it would have been wrong for Johnson to avoid the smaller men.
The light-heavyweights wasn't really a division in those days. Even until the 1920s the light-heavyweights was just a sub-division of the heavyweights, and many of the light-heavyweight champions campaigned as heavyweights and were not necessarily in demand for their title.

 

He did not beat everyone except for Choynski and Hart. He had some other losses. And he had some draws that could be viewed as losses, even in his prime.

The sad thing is we have to play what if Johnson had rematched Langford,Jeanette,and McVey, while he was champ. He ducked them as champion.

I get the hunch Johnson had a strong but limited McVey's number.

Jeanette vs Johnson could have gone either way, and if was 20+ rounds I do believe Jeanette's work rate and stamina would get him a decision based on Johnson's preferred style. I do think that a novice Jeanette did well vs Johnson.

Langford vs Johnson could have been 50/50. I am more impressed with Langford on film. His power, aggression and skills could certainly knock Johnson out or put him into a defensive shell.

Let's say 1-1-1 vs the big three. I am out until perhaps Monday. See ya.

Stand out heavyweight champions do not get floored by middles, perhaps out boxed by middles, draw with journeyman, or fail to fight the best competition. This was Johnson's title run.

Johnson win over a teen age McVey, a 156 pound Langford, and a novice .500 fighter ( who also had a losing record in some of the matches ) in Jeanette were fought at times when Johnson was ready, and they were not.

Yet when Johnson fought men near his size and experience, who could also punch back some, he struggled. See Choynski, Hart, Griffin, or Klondike.

If Jeffries fought Johnson as an active champion from 1899-1904, I think he scores a TKO or pounds his way to an decision.

Had Sam McVey people secured enough money to meet Burns first in 1908, I think Sam McVey wins late.

 

"stand out heavyweight champions do not get floored by middles"

This is perhaps a reasonable point, but I can't help but notice how different your argument is here than it was in the Tom Sharkey-Rocky Marciano better chin thread, in which you wrote off Sharkey being dropped twice by the 156 lb Kid McCoy and maintained Sharkey had a better chin than Marciano despite being knocked down by a middleweight.


You seem to argue both sides of the street depending on whether you like or dislike a fighter.